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#3195245 - 02/01/11 05:18 AM Red Pill screenshots: J-20 trial by fire
Dimitris Offline
Member

Registered: 01/13/01
Posts: 622
Loc: Greece
The year is 2018 and the Chinese J-20 stealth fighter gets its baptism of fire against the cream of the Japanese air defence force, in a new series of Red Pill screenshots released by Warfare Sims: http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=1379
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There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with the decisions we have already made. - Lady Morella, Babylon 5

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

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#3196144 - 02/02/11 02:20 AM Re: Red Pill screenshots: J-20 trial by fire [Re: Dimitris]
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 3065
Loc: Portugal
Looks great and I'm really anticipating this game very much!

But nevertheless I disagree with one thing (only) regarding the J-20 performance in that game which is:
"More agile than the J-10 & J-11..."

Most aviation specialists seem to agree that this J-20 isn't very agile even because it seems that it isn't designed to be a very agile since by looking at the J-20 design we can see a very large fighter aircraft (one of the largest fighter aircraft in existance) which have a considerable small wing area compared to the overall size/area of the aircraft.
Most aviation specialists seem to also agree that the J-20 is designed to be either a Stealth long range interceptor (imagine a "Stealth Mig-25 or Mig-31") or a Stealth long range attack aircraft (imagine a "Stealth Tornado, F-111 or F-15 Strike Eagle) or both.

So according to this NO way that the J-20 can be more agile than a J-11 (which is the Chinese name for the Su-27, which we all know is a very agile aircraft) or even more agile than a J-10 (which is a Chinese variant of the Israeli IAI Lavi project which in its turn was based on the F-16).

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#3196196 - 02/02/11 04:43 AM Re: Red Pill screenshots: J-20 trial by fire [Re: Dimitris]
Dimitris Offline
Member

Registered: 01/13/01
Posts: 622
Loc: Greece
Hi Ricardo, thanks for the much appreciated feedback.

It is indeed difficult to pin down the exact attributes of this aircraft as long as we are short of authoritative technical data. What info we do have (almost entirely derived from visual observation) can be easily interpreted in different ways. As an example, here is part of the feedback we received from a very knowledgeable person on Chinese developments:

Quote:
As for your assumptions, I think your estimation of J-20 is too conservative. Since China cannot achieve the same level of stealth or sensor fusion as Western air forces, it would have to aim for higher maneuverability, faster speed and longer range than F-22/35. And I think that's what you see with the J-20, which is slightly smaller than Flankers and is clearly optimized for A2A engagements. Think about it: What's the point of putting something that's bad for stealth like the canards on there unless they are trying to use flight performance to overcome the disadvantage in radar signature. And having something like a variable DSI intake, which would be not as good for stealth, but better for supersonic performance.
Also by 2018, they will have a new generation of AAMs in place like PL-10 for SR, later generation of PL-12 for MR and PL-21 for LR engagements against AWACS specifically. I'm not sure if PL-21 can fit into the internal bay at the moment, but PL-10/12 should be able to.


On the other hand, we have the series of excellent posts by Bill Sweetman which tend to align more with your assessment:

China's stealth striker
J-20 - Denial is not an option
How not to think about the J-20
Party down at Chengdu
J-20 - The dragon gets airborne
From JAST to J-20

Therefore, it is our impression that the open-source aerospace/defence community has not yet reached an overwhelming consensus as to the strong and weak points of this aircraft.

Our DB authors are busy absorbing all the feedback we have received (including yours) from the publishing of the article and we should have a more refined model of the aircraft in the next iteration of the Red Pill databases.

Thanks again!
_________________________
There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with the decisions we have already made. - Lady Morella, Babylon 5

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

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#3196871 - 02/02/11 04:03 PM Re: Red Pill screenshots: J-20 trial by fire [Re: Dimitris]
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 3065
Loc: Portugal
Well, it's great to know that somehow I'm contributing for this awesome looking game!

Yes I understand that since the J-20 is in a prototype stage that it's extremelly dificult to have a "near accurate" technical data regarding that plane and the vast majority of the technical data regarding the J-20 is a guesswork exercise.
But things such as aerodynamics trend to be "universal" and a combat aircraft that has a small wing area (proportional to the overall aircraft size) will or trends to be less agile than a combat aircraft that has a larger wing area (proportional to the overall aircraft size) and it seems clear that by looking into the J-20 airframe that its wing area is really small compared to the overall size of the aircraft - For example the Su-27 (J-11) which is also a very large fighter aircraft has a very large wing area (proportional to the overall aircraft size) hence the great agility that we all know that the Su-27 have. Other fighter aircraft such as the F-22 or the F-35 (or older ones such as the F-16 or F/A-18) also seem to have a larger wing area proportional to the aicraft's overall size compared to what the J-20 have.

So, regarding your quotation, I do not disagree with it (at least completly) - I agree that the J-20 may be faster and have a longer range than the F-35 and perhaps even than the F-22. But I do NOT believe that the J-20 will be more agile or even have a similar agility as the F-22 or even the F-35 have. Therefore I only disgree with the agility part, for the rest (speed and range) I would certainly "buy it". That's why I believe that if the J-20 is designed for air-to-air combat that it will be some sort of a "Stealth Mig-25/31" - A very fast and long range interceptor (but not a dogfighter)!

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