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#3181828 - 01/17/11 08:42 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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BOBC Offline
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Hi
<<luthier (Ilya>>

any idea just where and how, no good posting on the 1C as he should have seen such and obviously doesn't also look in on there.
Perhaps a link to what is considered the best gateway through to the guys at Maddox.
BOBC

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#3181870 - 01/17/11 09:36 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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I can't believe that the development team would stray so obviously away from the required period detail - or even slightly. Surely there is more than enough historical information readily available which would obviate any chance of that?

At the start of Oleg's BoB project, he made appeals for information on certain aspects of that campaign - even on the BoBII forum! I think he made historical accuracy a criterion right from the start.

Hopefully, we are about to see the results.

yep


'Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant.'

Manfred von Richtofen
---------------------------



#3181977 - 01/17/11 11:52 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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MattM, Mk.IIA s flew in the Battle, the one I 'know' entered service in the August 1940, fought in the Battle and used to have the battle damage to prove it. Hope they get the sound of the Merlin right.


To..
#3182500 - 01/18/11 06:37 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: Frankyboy]  
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Wishing I was in the La Cloche
Originally Posted By: Frankyboy
... not realy, the Mk.IIa came well in service before 31.october 1940... the Mk.IIa will be a flyable Spitfire version of CoD.

Yes, the IIa should be in BoB:
Quote:
Deliveries of Spitfire IIs began in June 1940. No. 611 fully converted to Spitfire IIs in August 1940, thus being the first squadron to become fully operational with the type. Nos. 266 and 74 followed in early September, with Nos. 19 and 66 switching during the latter half of the month. In October, it was 41 and 603 squadrons turn, bringing to 7 the number of squadrons to fully equip with this varient during the Battle of Britain.
LINK Spitfire IIa flight tests

Exclusively a product of Castle Bromwich. I think I read somewhere else that they were also dribbled into units as needed starting in July. Would make a nice campaign upgrade, IF you survive!

Last edited by Bandy; 01/18/11 06:44 PM.

4x2.66 GHz Xeons, XFX 4870 1 GB, 11 GB DDR2 RAM, Win7 Pro x64, 120 GB OCZ Vertex2 (MLC, Sandforce)
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#3182530 - 01/18/11 07:15 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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Just for the record - The SoW cockpit comes from photos taken of a real MkI that actually flew in the Battle of Britain. Fact, because I took them with the assistance of the RAF (at some cost to me). So there we are.

#3182543 - 01/18/11 07:26 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: Ian Boys]  
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Originally Posted By: Ian Boys
Just for the record - The SoW cockpit comes from photos taken of a real MkI that actually flew in the Battle of Britain. Fact, because I took them with the assistance of the RAF (at some cost to me). So there we are.


I distinctly remember this being the case well back in 2004/5. So why come up with a MkV theory now when it's far too late anyway to make adjustments. confused No doubt we will be seeing much of this type of thread in and around the release! Pretty much the same as when IL2 came out...geez that was a fiasco.

Mizzy

#3182564 - 01/18/11 07:56 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: Mizzy]  
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Originally Posted By: Mizzy
Originally Posted By: Ian Boys
Just for the record - The SoW cockpit comes from photos taken of a real MkI that actually flew in the Battle of Britain. Fact, because I took them with the assistance of the RAF (at some cost to me). So there we are.


I distinctly remember this being the case well back in 2004/5. So why come up with a MkV theory now when it's far too late anyway to make adjustments. confused No doubt we will be seeing much of this type of thread in and around the release! Pretty much the same as when IL2 came out...geez that was a fiasco.

Mizzy



Funny how when and game comes out, their forums are full of stuff like... "it's Broke" "this is wrong" "this doesn't work the way i think it should" "they ripped me off" "The evil corporate giant is only out to steal your money". the best part is when they use Game A to compare to Game B and tell you how pwerfect game A is. yet when you go to game A's forum, it looks just liek game B, and they're are people in that forum using game B as an example of a game done right. Unlike Game A, which is broke. Unless you read game B's forum, in which case the game is broke. Sorry, it's a little confusing to me too.

#3183481 - 01/19/11 08:47 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: Ian Boys]  
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Originally Posted By: Ian Boys
Just for the record - The SoW cockpit comes from photos taken of a real MkI that actually flew in the Battle of Britain. Fact, because I took them with the assistance of the RAF (at some cost to me). So there we are.


Ian, did this particular aircraft undergo any instrumentation or cockpit control modifications during it's service life?


Cheers!

jocko-

417 RCAF
#3183511 - 01/19/11 09:12 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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Ah yes, like the famous "tape" instruments in the F-106 were not only not standard when it was introduced to service (only on the later production models) but only some of the early ones were retrofitted with them later, leaving some F-106s to always have round dials, some to start with round and end with tapes, and others to always have tapes, even though all were technically "F-106A."



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3183516 - 01/19/11 09:19 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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Oh, i guess i got misunderstood here.

I'm aware that the MkIIa was in the battle of britain. I just meant that there is no "fact" (maybe i overlooked it), that there will be a different variant (MkI) in CoD and wether or not the cockpit we saw in those shots and videos is actually for the MkI and/or MkIIa (not saying that the cockpit would be correct for either of the two). Same for the 109 basically, so far, we only saw those with the early canopy. And the only designation i've spotted in screenshots was the E-3.

Now i really hope that we'll get MkI (that's a given, just saying) and E-4 (i sure hope so, E-1 would be great too, i don't expect a E-7 though), would be great if they would finally reveal their plane-list.

Anyway, it took a long time for someone to notice these "flaws" in the Spitfire cockpit (assuming it is really incorrect right now), i'm pretty sure the majority could live with that wrong cockpit for sure.

Last edited by MattM; 01/19/11 09:19 PM.
#3183600 - 01/19/11 10:49 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: MattM]  
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In the moskau Game show videos you could spot 4 different flyable Spitfire versions!
3 x MkI , 1x MkIi
We will see how reliable this is soon biggrin


JG53*Frankyboy
Flugzeugfhrer 8./JG53 "Pik As"
HQ_III./JG53
#3183703 - 01/20/11 01:00 AM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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First hello, 1st post.

I have a slight problem with there being only one true Mk1 cockpit. There isn't.

By the time of the BoB they had already made the prototype MkIII. A lot changed in a very short time. Even the MkV was in development at the time of the BoB. The Bakelite seat was introduced into production on the 14th of Feb 1940 (Modification Number 189)

Other Production Mods..

Modification Number 216 is interesting - Introduce plastic instrument panel - 25th April 1940
Modification Number 215 - Delete Flap position indicator - 20th March 1940.

There are loads of them that pre date the BoB.
There are only early or late Mk1 cockpits, we'd need to know the serial before we can say it's wrong.


#3184446 - 01/20/11 10:12 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: Winny]  
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2005AD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winny
First hello, 1st post.

I have a slight problem with there being only one true Mk1 cockpit. There isn't.

By the time of the BoB they had already made the prototype MkIII. A lot changed in a very short time. Even the MkV was in development at the time of the BoB. The Bakelite seat was introduced into production on the 14th of Feb 1940 (Modification Number 189)

Other Production Mods..

Modification Number 216 is interesting - Introduce plastic instrument panel - 25th April 1940
Modification Number 215 - Delete Flap position indicator - 20th March 1940.

There are loads of them that pre date the BoB.
There are only early or late Mk1 cockpits, we'd need to know the serial before we can say it's wrong.



The above is very true, so many modifications throughout the production stages that there was no such thing as a true be all standard. When it all comes down to it nobody but the pickiest rivet counter is going to complain if the aileron trim wheel in our BoB era Spitfire is really a Mk V one from one year later. smile

Last edited by 2005AD; 01/20/11 10:14 PM.
#3184754 - 01/21/11 08:32 AM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: 2005AD]  
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Originally Posted By: 2005AD
When it all comes down to it nobody but the pickiest rivet counter is going to complain if the aileron trim wheel in our BoB era Spitfire is really a Mk V one from one year later. smile


But that's what separates Oleg from other developers: exacting attention to detail. It may not matter to the average Joe, but it does to him.

#3184795 - 01/21/11 10:54 AM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: LukeFF]  
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2005AD Offline
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Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Originally Posted By: 2005AD
When it all comes down to it nobody but the pickiest rivet counter is going to complain if the aileron trim wheel in our BoB era Spitfire is really a Mk V one from one year later. smile


But that's what separates Oleg from other developers: exacting attention to detail. It may not matter to the average Joe, but it does to him.


Il-2 had plenty of mistakes in many areas such as markings, cockpit details or external details etc. So your while your point that it matters to Oleg may be true, the fact is that he and 1C do make mistakes. Sometimes these mistakes get fixed but quite often the resources are not available to fix the problem. Oleg with all the will in the world may strive for absolute authenticity in the aircraft in his sim, unfortunately he has to accept that mistakes will be made, and concessions have to be made. Nothing wrong with that, what is wrong though is beleiving without a shadow of a doubt that Oleg and 1C are always right.

For example, to show how easily mistakes can be made when considering Spitfire Mk I cockpit details think about the following. In WWII a Spitfire Mk I that survived long enough was relegated to second line units, then eventually to a training OTU. During the course of its life it would have needed replacement parts and given many of the modifications as ordered by the MoD. If a trim wheel or a an instrument needed replaced it would have been given one from current stock (ie a Mk V or even a Mk IX equivelant part). Modern restored Spitfies are even worse and should rarely be used as historical references for cockpit details. Many of the so called authentic Mk Is in existence have the later windshield with the armoured glass on the inside. They also have the bulged canopy sides that were introduced during the Mk V production and as such would never have appeared on a BoB era Spitfire. They almost always have the wing strengthening strips that were introduced in early 1942 and retrofited when possible to most surviving A and B wing Sptifires.

What this all means is that any surviving examples of any WWII aircraft will inevitably have had parts replaced, upgraded or modified during its existence. So when anyone researching these examples takes photos and notes they need to be aware of these facts. I have visited museums with Mk Is that had many later Spitfire features, had I not known better I would insist that the Spitfire Mk I should have wing strenghtening strips. The early Spitfire shots from SoW showed these strips on the wings, thankfully they have been removed in the current model.

My point is that one or two very minor mistakes that are very easy to make when it comes to cockpit details are forgivable. Only the most enthusiastic Spitfire nut is going to even notice. I'm not going to complain when a minor Mk V detail or two ends up in a BoB era Mk I. As long as no major mistakes are made then Olegs reputation will remain intact smile

#3184815 - 01/21/11 11:56 AM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: 2005AD]  
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It totally depends on what you mean by authentic. The first 149 Spitfires had different engines to all the other Mk 1s these were delivered by December 1938. They also had ring bead sights, 2 pitch prop (later converted to Rotol C/S Propeller in Feb '39 and converted again in July '40 to De Hav C/S Prop), different fuel tanks, no rear armour, no bullet proof windscreen, manual landing gear.. the list goes on and on..

If you use these as authentic Mk 1s then you're right to say that the cockpit is wrong but you are 2 years to early..

By the time of the Battle of Britain most of the initial batch of Spitfires had been converted

If you get issued a new Spitfire in CoD then it would be ok to have the plastic seat and trim wheel and Mk III canopy and windscreen, different instrument panel etc because it'll be May 1940, the Spitfire II was already being built by then and a lot of the parts ovelapped. The Trim wheel is a period feature not a MK feature it was used in I,II, and V's. It's simply the late 1940 version.

#3184827 - 01/21/11 12:20 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: Winny]  
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2005AD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winny
It totally depends on what you mean by authentic. The first 149 Spitfires had different engines to all the other Mk 1s these were delivered by December 1938. They also had ring bead sights, 2 pitch prop (later converted to Rotol C/S Propeller in Feb '39 and converted again in July '40 to De Hav C/S Prop), different fuel tanks, no rear armour, no bullet proof windscreen, manual landing gear.. the list goes on and on..

If you use these as authentic Mk 1s then you're right to say that the cockpit is wrong but you are 2 years to early..

By the time of the Battle of Britain most of the initial batch of Spitfires had been converted

If you get issued a new Spitfire in CoD then it would be ok to have the plastic seat and trim wheel and Mk III canopy and windscreen, different instrument panel etc because it'll be May 1940, the Spitfire II was already being built by then and a lot of the parts ovelapped. The Trim wheel is a period feature not a MK feature it was used in I,II, and V's. It's simply the late 1940 version.



That is exactly my point. So many changes that it is impossible to say one feature is not authentic, it is the time periods that matter. It is authentic for a Spitfire Mk I to have the later canopy and the wing strentghening strips, but not during the BoB era. As long as the mistakes aren't glaring ones it is acceptable IMHO.

#3185447 - 01/21/11 11:15 PM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: 2005AD]  
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Originally Posted By: 2005AD
Il-2 had plenty of mistakes in many areas such as markings, cockpit details or external details etc. So your while your point that it matters to Oleg may be true, the fact is that he and 1C do make mistakes. Sometimes these mistakes get fixed but quite often the resources are not available to fix the problem. Oleg with all the will in the world may strive for absolute authenticity in the aircraft in his sim, unfortunately he has to accept that mistakes will be made, and concessions have to be made. Nothing wrong with that, what is wrong though is beleiving without a shadow of a doubt that Oleg and 1C are always right.


Totally understood. The accuracy (or what is perceived to be accurate) is always going to be highly dependent on the resources available. I certainly don't think Oleg and his team is infallible. Rather, it's their mindset that they have with this project. They're open and willing to make corrections, provided the proof is valid. There's been a number of examples of that with both CoD and IL2.

Personally, I try to not go too hard on them with cockpit mistakes, either. When I modeled the He 162 interior, it was baffling trying to figure out what was the "correct" cockpit layout. No two interiors that I examined were the same. In cases like that, the developer/modeler has to make a judgement call, based on the historical evidence available.

#3190122 - 01/27/11 04:40 AM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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Hi,
Simple fact is, after all the comments. the bottom line is as follows :-

Major features that Oleg must have in the Mk1 cockpit to represent the vast majority of Spitfires Mk1 flying in the Battle of Britain, are :-
Two fuel gauges with two press to read buttons
Volts and amps gauges, one above the other.
single tier pedals marked Supermarine
Flaps gauge hole to left of dimmer screen cutout
Two fuel cock levers
Landing Lamp control
Switch to turn lamp on
Large time of trip clock
Elevator trim wheel with rippled edge in greygreen aluminium with black rubber type compound edge.
No red light bottom right.
Aluminium gun button surround (was red but it wore down)
Green lettering is not BoB period but late war or post war !

All recovered spitfire wreckage from BoB crashes show this. Photographing a current RAF owned Spitfire that flew in the BoB is no good as it incorporates all sorts of mods made since 1940. Mods like bakelite seats and plastic inst panels..dont get misled by dates, they didnt make it into service intime to be in the vast majority if not all of the Spits flying. Not one dig has found a plastic panel. X serialed spits had metal ones, so thats K, L, N P and X with metal, X was the last of the production run. If someone can prove that a handful of BoB spits in late October 1940 had one fuel gauge and a small clock, two tier pedals etc, its still wrong that that fact means that we are left to fly a cockpit representing the small minority, we need to be flying K L N P and X aircraft. If anyone has evidence that a BoB spit actually flew in the BoB with the features I have indicated as incorrect I would be interested to read of such. Any aviation archaeologists that have dug up a panel that crashed during the BoB with features differing from my list or with plastic panels or bakelite seats please reply to this thread.

The above list is fact. If this is a serious sim then Oleg needs to get serious about representing the spitfire Mk1 cockpit. Yes they did vary but not to include what he has done. Variations were K and L had a smaller flaps gauge hole and laregr lettering under it, early on the starter button was aluminium but had been revised to the all bakelite one by the time of the BoB. 48 gal gauge was discontinued and a data plate added over the 37 gauge during the BoB. Rotary switch top right became toggle switch. K and L had a camera control on the stbd datum longeron and K L P had coarse/fine pitch knob on port longeron. Early spits had pump action undercariage control. Yes there was no standard tub but the list above is accurate for ALL Mk1 spits. As said if anyone reckons a BoB spit had something different to what I say, back up the claim with evidence. The pilots notes in this thread http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=14619 show the correct trim wheel,the larger clock, Flaps gauge hole and Landing lamps switch so Oleg would do well to follow this, I see mention of Spitfire Pilots notes for the Mk1 being supplied to those who buy Cliffs of Dover so if such are these, then comparisons will spot errors.

Can someone make him and the team aware of this list, the means of contacting him are elusive.

BOBC

Last edited by BOBC; 01/27/11 04:48 AM.
#3190222 - 01/27/11 09:40 AM Re: Spitfire modelled is currently a MkV not Mk1 as required. [Re: BOBC]  
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I'd rather have a good COD with a slightly wrong cockpit than a perfect cockpit in max to look at, but no game.

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