Hi to all I'm new to this board and this is my first post, I was a huge fan of falcon 4.0 loooooooooong ago and i was on the verge of building a fully fledged cockpit but i never finished it and in the meantime technology changed to USB, my project was based on a TM F16 FLCS when the Cougar came out it was really to expensive and my budget was already depleted so i tried a Saitek but it was imprecise to a point that instead of finishing the cockpit I gave up flying, all my "wannabe fighter pilot" stuff just rested in the basement until last month.

This Christmas i bought Tom Clancy’s hawx2 out of curiosity, actually the game is more akin to sega's Afterburner than to simulator but i had fun with it and my X45 was good enough (but still far from being serious stuff) to nail some enemies in dogfight but I still wanted something better i saw the Logitech G940 that looked good to me but I’m not fan of FF technology, Saitek x65 and TM Warthog were tempting but I imagined the look that my wife would have given to me when the thing was delivered home.
I was thinking about the stuff abandoned in my basement and I realized that I already owned a warthog (sort of) I just needed a brain for it . The BU0836A that I found surfing the grid while looking for an interface for my MAME cab came up in my mind then I yelled "IT COULD WORK!" ans started thinking about free falcon/open falcon and DCS a10
Looking for information I found this site. Most of the thing I’m doing have been already done but I would like to try to improve the one that I already understood and I also need some feedback about my ideas and I need some help as well.

So after this long premise I’m introducing my project.


I have a Suncom HOTAS set and a TM f16 FLCS and TQS so I’m planning to build 2 HOTAS that can exchange the throttle among them , using the SFS with the FLCS will be cool and the next best thing to a TM warthog and, while using the TQS with the Talon I think will be weird, at least I will have 2 complete sets that I can use if I want to play with some friend in local network, thoose HOTAS have to be used on the desk and in the cockpit .
The HOTAS will share the same button number / analog axis number layout (I.E. pinkie will have same button, ANT will have the same axis, HAT 1 will be the same etc) where possible.
Addons to my setup will be.
TM elite rudder pedals will be modified with HALL sensor .
Quickshot masterpilot with shorthened cabling connected to a ps2 ->USB converter as MFD (maybe put in front of some LCD glass cocpit).

F15 talon modification:


1. Getting rid of the PCB and replace with standalone hats and buttons
2. Add dual stage trigger
3. Add paddle switch (f16 style but painted matte red)
4. Two position selectable grip orientation, 0 and 15~20 degree.
5. back and aft capability on the left thumb switch as well as keeping push down capability.
6. Mounting switches/buttons on the base if possible under some "Movie Detonator" style guard to bring the button count up to the FLCS 's one using reamining buttons available on the matrix.
7. A1302 hall sensor Doc Flyer's style mod with an improvement that allows to reverse the magnet polarity and align the center if needed.
8. rebuild the lower part of the base with an industrial aluminum box 3 o 5 mm thickness (painted with high temperature matte black spray) to allow controller card to fit and to hide old button holes.



SFS modifications: (needed for repair damaged part and to keep button count low in order to use it with the FLCS)

1. ANT switch replaced with an f16 style knob and pot.
2. left throttle lever pinkie switch replaced with an f16 paddle switch parallel to the handle side (i broke it, but since i have small pinkie fingers i think will be easier to reach the paddle switch) basically a button but cooler.
3. 3 one of the hat switches on the right throttle lever replaced with a cannibalized playstation analog mini joy.
4. lower part of the base box completely redone (same kind box as the joystick base).
5. Hall sensor mod (need suggestion) .

F16 FLCS modifications:
1. accurate pinkie switch
2. Selectable orientation mod as the Talon
3. hall sensor mod (need suggestion)


TQS modifications
1. “eraser head” replaced with hat switch or mini joystick
2. Hall sensor “BIC pen” mod
3. If “eraser head” won’t be replaced by joystick available pot connections will be used for trimmers.


Thanks to the ones who read all my post so far here is the “I need help “Part:

1. I understood quite well (I hope) how the BIC pen magnet arrangement works for TQS but I have some doubt on what to do on the FLCS, if I understood correctly the A1302 can read the angle of the magnetic field between 0 an 90 degrees since the pot has a throw of 60 degrees should I mount he magnet in some sort of “fake potentiometer” configuration o r directly on the Joystick gimbals axis?
2. Can the Doc flier’s mod be applied to the SFS also (I would like to avoid to build a transmission shaft if possible)
3. Should I extend the “Neck” of the joystick while I m preparing the mod that allows to rotate the handle? If yes what would be the suggested amount?
4. All your comments and suggestions are more than welcome
Thanks in advance to all

Hi Bluedeath,

Love this mods.

Some comments:



The best place to get stand alone HAT - with different covers:

http://www.splash-one-bandit.com/parts.html

Another, probable made by CH - not really cheap:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1114837&k=HAT



If you dont play really old games consider put a independent USB controller inside SFS - cheap DIY Mjoy8/16 is good option.



With independent USB controller inside SFS you can consider make one base Warthog lookalike, due more buttons and axis available.



Ask Splash One Bandit for this, they make a very good one.
http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3123525/Searchpage/1/Main/320489/Words/splash+one+bandit/Search/true/Cougar_Paddle_Lever.html#Post3123525


Any is fine, for some games HAT (buttons is more useful) for another's mini-stick (axis).

Mini-stick source: http://yhst-27389313707334.stores.yahoo.net/thumbjoystick.html



Original "Eraserhead" dont use axis (pots) just buttons.



For practical use you are limited to around 40 degrees. So "BIC" assembly is fine to FLCS too.



In original F16FLS pots pots rotate only 35~40 degrees. So put magnet in joystick gimbal axis (or in BIC assembly) is more easy.



Problem with SFS is that your levers travel too much, around 90 degrees, and the original pot have a huge linear travel. I think that DIY HALL assembly (like Doc Fliers) in original pot case exced the usable reading angle (~40 degrees) of these HALL sensor.

Read that Mike Powel (mikesflightdeck.com) say about useful reading angle of HALL sensor here:
http://www.mikesflightdeck.com/old_stuff4.htm

Good luck whit these (big) project, and keep the news coming.

Sokol1

Thanks for the advice i already ordered parts from Spalsh One, I have still some hat switches around that i can use with some adaptation.
As for more buttons Since BU has only 32 + 4 available buttons I'm thinking about adding a separete keyboard encoder for the added buttons the only thing that is stopping me from doing it is that id like to keep cables count low, i'm already using 2 cables: one for analogs and one for buttons between Joy and throttle (with with on emale and one female connection to avoid to invert connection to the joystick base) adding a third encoder would mean a third cable, I'm thinking about hacking a USB hub and put it into the joystick and using the unused cables from one of the others but in afraidd thsi will add noise to the signal.

Im having troulbe with the metal box: aluminum is out of the question so i ha to swit to steel but im afraid this will interfere with hall sensors. Hotas warthog has ha metal base so i hope that this will not be an issue otherwise il use the good old particle board (which i really hope will not be the case)

EDIT only now i realized that you meant that I can use the leftover buttons on the matrix on the trottle base intead than in the joystick one.

Now if I could just find the time to FINISH this thing!

That ěs a cool mod, but i would like to get rid of the pots, But I could use your technique and install some gear to reudce the angle of the rotating magnet assembly to a useful ratio, thanks for this pictures. Is the CH stuff inside the box going to be connected and usable (as keys on the base)?.

I'm going to be using what you see for the HATS/buttons and X and Y axes (mini-joystick) for the left and right throttle. All will be programmable in Control Manager.

Bluedeath,

Look these solution used for place HALL in DIY gimbal, for F16FLCS you can use similar arrange.
Notice that magnet rotation is for short angle.

http://forum.fliegende-schweine.de/showthread.php?tid=102

Sokol1

That leaves what was once the main throttle axis (Z)...planning to convert that two-way rocker into an analog rotary more akin to the real F-15 throttle?

The main throttle's axis, in Control Manager set up as seperate devices, I can pick what axes I want to use for each device. In this case I can pick X for the left engine and Y for the right. Actually, on the Suncom it is a two way switch. BUT, with Control Manager, I can and probably will program the rocker as CM Axes

I've done some research i think i have to add some link to reduce the throttle hall sensor rotation to an arc of 40 degrees as Sokol1 suggested.
I started to work on CAD drawings for the new boxes for joystick and SFS, i tried freecad that is powerful but a little bit ankward, anyhow viewing a 3d model of the box made me ralize that i have to rethink some of my mechaical solutions im going to borrow the TM warthog style by using 3mm thick anodized aluminum panels fixed onto a welded steel frame with hex screws, as for the joystick base I still have to decide if i wanty simply a box with a hole to fith the original upper part of the talon's box or i should try to build it frolm scratch and keep only "saturn ring" and movement part of the thing, im still waiting for the usb card to be delivered so im only wild guessing for time being.

Does someone know the suggested cable leght between copmponents and the BU card?
Can Pots and hall sensord be used together (of course on different axis)?

Ideally for AXIS use more short cable possible. And/or use shield cables, like these for microphones.

No problem in use HALL and pots in same USB controller, both work as voltage divider.

In one CH PRO Pedal that I rewired to USB (w/Mjoy8 Mercury) I use HALL sensor for rudder axis, and original CH pots for toe brakes. Work fine.

Sokol1

actually my quuestion was: Is it possible (by usting shielded cabling) to house the BU card in the joystick and connect the throtthe to it with a multi stranded cable (as the oldd school controllers) or i have to buy a card for each piece?
If yes can use (just as example) a 2 meter cable between the throttle controls and the BU housed in the joystick base?

I have done some progress in the new housing for the controls and i will post some pictures of the CAD drawings soon.

Yes, I usually re-use old gameport cables and your DB15 connector - since they have many internal wires (up to 15) and local market don offer similar one - for throttle button matrix.

For (throttle) axis I use shield cable when possible.

Note: In F16FLCS+TQS is possible hook throttle (TQS) into joystick base using just one original gameport cable.

For Suncon SFS you need two cables since they have more buttons (originally 19 buttons + 2 axis), unless find cable with ~20 internal wires.



Of course.

Considerations: Actually Windows recognize up to 8 axis, 32 buttons and (1) HAT.
Using one USB controller inside each (joystick, throttle..) you overcome this limit (G940 Warthog approach), and can use additional axis for rudder pedal, trim wheels, buttons for additional panels...

CON - Old games(1) don't recognize more than one USB controller, so if you still playing Red Baron...

(1)COTS HOTAS overcome this with programing software.

Sokol1

I actually i took for granted to build an "old school" controller that windows whould have seen as a single unit,
In fact one of the reason that is making me using a microjoystik and a potentiometer ant elev instead of some of the switches, is to match the number of buttons that i can use by sharing somehohw the TQS cabling scheme without having unusable buttons in the SFS (wich has a lot mose switches that the TQS, with this scheme I still have availble buttons that TQS is not using and i can add them on the TQS base.

This is my control connection comparison for the axis inputs between the throttles:

Input on Card -> TQS -> SFS
3 -> throttle -> Throttle (Right lever)
4 -> ANT range -> Throttle (Left lever)
7 -> ANT elev -> ANT elev on left handle
6 and 7 -> Mini joy (replaces eraserhead) -> mini joy (replaces right hat on right handle)

Connection will be installed on the base of the switch for the external rudder (din or mini din connector).

This is the button matrix comparison (most of you will find this familiar, thank you guys, you made my work a lot simplier):

Input on card -> TQS -> SFS
19 - 22 -> front 4 way switch -> Left hat on the right handle
23 - 24 -> speedbrake -> speedbrake on right handle
25 - 26 -> dogfight switch -> Hat rocker
27 - 28 -> buttons on base -> Boat rocker
29 - 30 -> buttons on base -> tent rocker
31 -> mini joy button -> Pinkie switch on left lever
32 -> ANT range button -> red button on left lever

Ok this is my first operative update, BU0836 arrived and tested with pot because I'm still waiting for the hall sensors.
ANT elev switch has been removed from suncom trottle and I just discovered that the switch was actually a fake potentiometer so no modificarion are needed to fit a pot in place of the switch.... Big horray!

I installed the microjoystick in place of the hat of the right handle as you can see in the pictures (sorry for the bad quality but i had only my mobile phone to take them), the "hat" is actually a spare GP2X thumb support that i had laying around i think is good looking enough. let me know what do you think of this first step.

Bluedeath,

See this F16FLCS+TQS=BU0836 USB conversion:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/t...LKHulRG62h53mYg

Sokol1

Thanks for the link it looks easier that i tought. I tried stiffer springs on the FLCS axis gimbals it first i was happy beacause they gave me the same resistance of the F-22 but i had to remove them when i noticed that the gimbals rails were twisted when the lever was at extreme positons so i had to swith back to the original springs + some hard rubber bands to reach a compromise. Im still waiting for the hall sensors and the upgrade parts to be delivered.

BTW if somoone of you has a TM X- fighter to sell or parts of it please let me know.

Sorry for the lack of update, I'm still waiting for the hall sensors (it seems that Italian customs officers are having in evaluating how much i owe them for 12$ of real walue), I conneted the FLCS handle to the base of an old fanatec joystick (german design, ironically had a CH combatstick knockoff handle but i really dont like it too much), while still mmade of plastic plastic the gimbals on this base are much better. Im working on the new pcbs for the FLCS handle and the talon also i'll place the designs if someone is interested. plese let me know.

Update (I'll post the photo of the joystick later i hope). I was able to finish the F16 joystick unfornutalely the 15° degree selectable orientation had to go due to the fact that plasic was too fragile to do it in a safe way without the risk of snapping the neck of the stick ( i hope I can do that on the Suncom stick otherwise I'll make it to 15 degree fixed).

Splash one bandit parts (paddle and hat 2) have been fitted and they are a dream that came true (especially the paddle), the new base make all the think look like a plastic version of the cougar (better than original FLCS base anyway).

Since thoose frakking sensor didnt arrive yet i had to go with 100k B pots that were already in the base and i must say that for the time being Im pretty much satisfied with them, no spiking and excellent response.

IS there someone who has the pcb designs for the Suncom stick handle? Im working on custom made hat switches but im afraid that they will not fit the handle so i need a "plan B"

Here one - but diode matrix is for Mjoy16 (8x8), need adjust to use with BU0836 (6x6).

http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?209926-Suncom-F-15-and-SFS-throttle-USB-remake

Sokol1

I just scored an old f16 fighterstick to keep for the grip (since a10 does not have paddle i just have to mod it with dual stage trigger er) and a pro throttle to cannibalize on ebay, so goddbye PCBS (thanks anyhow), After some thinking i decided to use a sigle BU card in the SFS case and replicate the Warthog throttle more closely, can someone tell me that switches on the warthog are momentary and what ones are toggles?

Now that phase 1 (basically learning what BU0836 can do) of project is done and i almost finished converting my old FLCS + Tqs to USB i made up my mind on how to proceed.
As stated before suncom SFS will be re-housed onto a new base and will have is own "brain" with (if possible ) even more buttons that the warthog.
For the joystick i just realized that since am modding it to be center mounted I just decided to create the box that is at the base of the F15 grip that will house the diode matrix and will have a 10 pin Amphenol plug to connect to the joystick base more or less like real F-15 does.
The reason of this kind of connection is that since i want to be able to switch between different grips: Suncom (F-15) Thrustmaster FLCS MK1 (B-8) and CH figtrstick (A-10).
Since Suncom's base is too weak to handle the extended joystick I'm reusing the good old metal FLCS (from which i taken the B8 style grip) mk1 base maybe with some dampeners.

Any suggestion on the extension amount and the shape of the collar (i will not use the stick on a table anymore of course)?
Any suggestion on how to multiply the ratio to achieve more precision?

Many thanks in advance to all

quick update i finished to convert the F-16 FLCS to hall effect sensors, linearity is good from 3 to 97 % of the measured value, contrary o what i believed the stick is too much responsive, I've got 30° of useful travel (basically i should restrict the hole in the base by 4mm on each side), I think this is due to my magnet assembly. I can live with that but if i have trouble i can always switch to the good old CH pots.

Yesterday i removed hall sensors assemblies and put CH POTS borrowed form the f16 fighter stick full 0~4095 range linearity achieved, i also finished mounting the tqs micro joystick for targeting. Ill keep the magnet assembly for the center mounted stick.

Quick update I'm getting crazy to get rid of the center play of the F16 FLCS so i ordered an F22 pro to rehouse the BU0836 in a better encasing. I ordered 2 Samsung 8" USB monitor photo frame to be put behind the cougar MFD and ill use the unused space for the DED and some gauges, going to buy Helios software once i understood why so many personal data are needed to register.

I should be ready to start working on the WH throttle this weekend. all other parts of the project are on hold. btw where can i find 3d hall sensors?

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1486432-ic-3d-joystick-pos-sensor-8-soic-mlx90333kdc-bch.html

Someone say that this things needed programming. And they probably need auxiliary amplifier circuit.

Why not try DIY MaRS whit available schemes.

Sokol1

You can show picture, that how fit the microstick in the TQS? and how change out the potmeter for the Hall sensor? I would like change the potmeter in my FLCS too . What kind of HALL sensor use you ?
I would like to made a new gimbal in my FLCS and put inside HALL sensor
my gimbal desing is this: http://noob.hu/2011/05/16/joy.jpg
The centering spring like the Saitek joystick, only bottom side

The do need programming, and the programmer is about $1500 USD. It's the same one that TM uses. CADDY has the programmer and was playing with different values.

Incidentally Sokol, I haven't been able to find the MaRS schemes. (Well, just the one)

Ltfransky,

Thanks to confirm the programing need. So this sensor is not good option for DIY...

The so-called "MaRS" (МАРСЫ) is Russian circuit using magnetoresistive angle sensor (like these used in automotive industry). Advantages over ordinary HALL Sensor:

-good linearity sensitivity.
-dont need very strong magnets.
-if gimbal have metal structure this dont affect the sensor.
-whit trim pot you can adjust travel output angle.

This make more ease to install and adjust MaRS setups.

Due need of auxiliary amplifier circuit is more expensive than stand alone HALL sensor.

Sample of circuity:



Assembled "MaRS" sold by GLV224 from Ukrania (10 euros).




The blue thing is for adjust readable angle.

In term of resolution/precision no advantage from "MaRS" of HALL.

BTW- I dont experiment with these circuits - local market dont have all components, what I say is from lecture in simmers forums.

Commercial controllers that use "MaRS":

VKB Rudder Pedal: http://www.vkb-flightsimcontrols.com/
Gametrix steering wheel: http://www.gametrix.ru/publications/15
Gametrix throttle: http://gametrix.ru/products/8

Sokol1

In the TQS for the microstick i just removed the old eraser head module and i put the new microstick in place with a lot of hot glue and i masked the hole for the stick with apiece of black rubber (unfortunately i forgot to take picture while i was working), for the hall sensor i can' find the site that suggested the mod (Should be check six) i'll post it as soon as i can find it.

For the FLCS gimbals I' working on a mod on the stock ones as soon as i can find the right springs ill post it on the forum

here is the link to the check six forum to the TQS hall mod is not in English but you only need the picture to understand what to do.