I was able to complete a couple of races with Race 07/Race On/STCC this weekend. It seems like it is a lot harder to control the cars than it does with rFactor. I had to bump my game settings down to "Novice" in order to get the enjoyment factor up a little. I know it depends on what car you are using, but at least in rFactor I was able to get on the track and compete using the SimHQ race settings.

Are the physics/game engine that much of a difference between the two sims or is it my lack of experience?

The two physics/game engine are actually quite similar although the feel of the cars can vary greatly depending upon the mod/car you are using. On the whole i find the two fairly comparable. Which car(s) were you using?

I was using the Chevrolet Lacetti.

Race/Evo/On does the WTCC cars pretty nicely and the Lacetti isn't too difficult, although it does lack all the extra aero widgets that help the rFactor DTM's. I suspect you just need a few hundred more laps

Thats what I figured. It was just a bit of a shocker from practicing on the SimHQ server starting to feel a bit more confident, then moving over to Simbin, and feeling like I'm majorly struggling to keep up while trying to stay on the track.

Was Race07/Race on built on Simbin's "Lizard" game engine? I never tried either of those titles, so I don't know a lot about them.

GTR2, I beleive, was built on ISI's engine, which is what rFactor uses. From everything I've seen and read about it, it's just a very tweaked out version of the rF engine, especially with the weather possibilities. I think GTR2's a bit harder to get a handle on myself, car handling wise, as opposed to rFactor.

We've tried to hold some Simbin series events around GTR2, but in spite of all efforts, the turnout was less than 10 cars for races with few exceptions. I have GTR2 sitting there on the game server in wait, and would not mind a series with it if the turn out was good. If P&G3 opens up their mod to more people, I would probably suggest we try it next. But that is TBD pending the mods release.

Are you trying to achieve good laptimes on the Top Gear track?

Power & Glory covers an era I think would make for good racing, kind of along the lines of GPL for tin-toppers....no real aero, steel brakes and a mix of other things that take the car more out of the equation and add the driver into it. From what I've read about version 3, it sounds promising....received my copy of GT Legends in the mail today, just wating for the mod to be released.

Maybe when GTR2 comes out on Simbin's store again things could pick up?

edit: then again, I forgot there's the issue of mismatched versions not being compatible.

The Lizard engine, as far as I know, has only used in Race Pro so far. I don't think any of the new offerings have used it yet.

edit 2: http://www.raceroom.net/shop/
Collectors edition showing now, that sounds interesting.

Correct, it made a (not very successful) debut in Race Pro on the 360. The first PC title to use Lizard will be GTR3 which is due to arrive at the end of the year.

This era of racing is seriously good fun but it's a totally different skill and one that is completely at odds with everything you've learned from modern sim cars. Sadly my abalitiy to drive quickly seems to dissapear just as rapidly as the handling, brakes, tyres and downforce on these cars lol

I still love to race em though

I forgot. Simbin has confirmed they are working on GTR 2011 or GTR3. That is sure to offer something -- unless they force all multiplayer activity on their own servers.

Hell yes!!!

Well, I've always thought that one of the main problems with modern racing and the lack of overtaking.....technology. You want F1 cars to make more passes? Easy, take away the carbon brakes. It's the easiest way to increase overtaking in what should be the pinnacle of motorsports. Sadly, that also takes away from it being the pinnacle, too because it retards advancements in the industry.

Everyone loved GPL because you could drive like a madman in a "romantic" era of racing, but you never had to worry about tire wear in it...and it wasn't a realsitic simulation of the era because of it IMHO. Yes, it's physics were ahead of it's time as far as car handling and reactions went, but that lacking in one area weakened the simulation part of it. But, it had that "fun factor" to it. To this day, Dave K. and crew continues to tweak the tire model in iRacing.

That's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to P&G v3...an accurate depiction of that era of racing, where equipment management is something that's simulated...instead of making sure you hit an apex at full steering lock, not worrying about the true effects of tire or machinery wear. But, with 100's of tire models in it...it will take a Herculean effort from the mod team to get it right....I wish them luck.

I have completed a few more races in the WTCC 2008 Championship. I think I am ready to move up a little in the difficulty settings due to the fact I have won the last 4 races. This last race I finished 15+ seconds ahead with a 60kg disadvantage. My enjoyment factor is greatly increasing along with my self-esteem which could be dangerous...lol.

I know a guy in my area that owns an open-wheel amateur race car. We were chatting about modern racing, and he said that two thing had 'killed' professional motorsports competition, in his opinion: sequential transmissions with auto-blip/lift, and carbon brakes. Overtakes are much more difficult (and rare) when no one misses a shift, and braking zones are painfully short. That opinion certainly seems to have merit.

I know a guy in my area that owns an open-wheel amateur race car. We were chatting about modern racing, and he said that two thing had 'killed' professional motorsports competition, in his opinion: sequential transmissions with auto-blip/lift, and carbon brakes. Overtakes are much more difficult (and rare) when no one misses a shift, and braking zones are painfully short. That opinion certainly seems to have merit. [/quote]

Very, very true.

Plus one more reason in my opinion: tyres. Their technology in top motorsport made great advances in comparison to old times. They are able to provide great grip when they are interacting with their own rubber laid down on racing line. Hence difference in grip between race line and off race line is huge. At least IMVUO (in my very uneducated opinion)

Tires/tyres (depending on which side of The Pond you're on ), sequential gearboxes, advanced braking systems, electronic engine controls, aerodynamic wings and winglets.....all of these and more technological advances contribute to making the field "even", as long as you've got the money to develop these areas. And money is THE key.

In 2009, the new teams in F1 for the 2010 season...Lotus, Virgin and Hispania...were told there would be a spending cap by Max Mosley on what teams could spend for the upcoming year...IIRC, it was 35 million US dollars. This was supposed to make it possible for the new teams to at least have the capacity to be semi-competitive with the big teams. Soon after joining, that budget cap was removed and replaced with one that favored the larger teams, basically ensuring the new teams that they would be backmarkers.

Being a F1 fan, and admittedly a Tifosi for years, I look back to the "fail" of F1 racing and can trace it to one point...the early 1980's, specifically 1982 and the San Marino Grand Prix boycott, the height of the FISA/FOCA "war". That was when then FOCA leader Bernie Eccelstone, who seen the commercial growth pootential in F1 racing and the billions to be made from it, made his bid to be the Supremo Numero Uno of F1 by elminating FISA and was largely successful. He was able to put his own lawyer, Max Mosley, in the FIA structure...and all F1 fans know where this led to over the years.

Racing in the '70's was about prestige...since then and through today, it's all about the money.

Interesting toughts, Steve. But I would not "demonise" Bernie's role. From commercial point of view the more exciting track action the better price you can get. He had no interest in making it worse.

And what happened in commercial terms to F1 happened to all major sports. Olympic Games, football, tenis, motorsport... they all made fortunes from development of Television technology, channels viewers penetration and television seach for sport content.

It's technology that makes things less exciting, as it makes equipment better and better. It happened in all areas depending on engineering.

Bernie has been good for the sport, from a commmerical view, but he could have been much better for the sport itself overall. There's been quite a few times where "good of the sport" was more "good for Bernie".

It's funny is some ways, he's become what he rallied against so much when representing FOCA back in the 80's. You look at the "power base" within F1 over the years and it's been filled with his "people"....Max (his legal representation), Gordon Murray (his team designer/engineer), Charlie Whiting (an engineer) to name the most important ones. I just point to that time I mentioned as when F1 turned more from racing to a racing business is all.

One thing I've learned since I've been following F1...yes, I know usually strange for a Yank to be such a fan of it...Bernie will always take care of Bernie, and in excess, too.

I think in GTR2 it all depends on the car. Some of them - by default - are a real handful to drive. Good example is the G2 '911 Biturbo; very fast, but a horror to drive consistently, and really not setup well by default. It is difficult to get working without actually making it worse, too. I actually started out with that car, and was astonished how much easier some of the much faster GT cars are to drive.

Get the right chassis - the Elise is a great example - and GTR2 is amazing fun.

My tastes have changed in the last few years - I really like the slightly 'slower' cars. I think it started with the Papyrus Nascar series (Still think 2003 is an unbeaten Single Player experience, and part of the GPL lineage) and tintops are really very enjoyable.

I have read that the bias ply tires of the late 60s were so hard that some F1 teams used the same tires over more than one race weekend - or at least used the same tires over an entire race weekend. True there's no appreciable tire wear, or more to the point perhaps that there are no changes due to tire overheating, or damage (flat-spotting) of the tires - something only one racing title so far has attempted (LFS, or so I hear).

I started out on GPL and have fond memories of it. I recognize that it has its limitations now, as the state of the art of CPUs has advanced allowing higher fidelity (and frequency) physics calculations in a racing game/sim. For that style of racing, I've found a lot of enjoyment in the F1 '71 mod for rFactor. I think it's just a League Edition right now, but still loads of fun to turn hot laps in. Nice sounds, too.

I remember reading an article once about the great Jim Clark and the Lotus 49...one of the Lotus mechanics said something along the lines that when he came in after a race...the tires, brakes and pretty much everything on the car looked like they'd hardly been used. And as long as the car didn't break down, which unforumately happened frequently in 1967 after Zandvoort, they had little work to do to it after a race to get it ready for the next Grand Prix weekend.

He mentioned they used to put a tarp over the car after it returned to the paddock so Graham Hill's mechanics wouldn't feel bad.

My problem with participating - GTR2 or rFactor - is the requirement to install all these exotic mods, patches and updates for the mods, fixes for the mods, etc. etc., some without self-exes. Race a car series that comes stock with the sim and I'm in. That would make it easier for techno-noobs like me to participate---people who can't keep up with all the mods and don't know how to install without self-exes to just click on. Seems no one races the cars that come with the sims. Everyone waits for a new mod.

I have the same problem, Plainsman. But, in rFactor, you almost have to race with mods because the default cars blow.

The included cars in GTR2, on the other hand, are the dog's nuts. The ne plus ultra of badass cars and I can't understand why no one races them. So, I play mostly offline.