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#3151915 - 07/26/10 05:11 AM Re: Friday update [Re: zerocinco]  
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wheelsup_cavu Offline
Lifer
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Corona, California
Some prewar videos.
I thought I saw a video where they are flying past the tower prewar on one of these channels
If nothing else I think they are good channels for research.

Bomberguy's channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/Bomberguy

UnknownWW2InColor - http://www.youtube.com/user/UnknownWW2InColor

UnknownWW2InColor2 - http://www.youtube.com/user/UnknownWW2InColor2


Video link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgKC9VU1-n8
Skyraider1404's channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyraider1404


Wheels


Cheers wave
Wheelsup_cavu

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#3151916 - 07/26/10 06:29 AM Re: Friday update [Re: wheelsup_cavu]  
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zerocinco Offline
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Tchepone, Laos
I read that it was "a dark color" until 1942 but one sentence on the internet is worse than meaningless.

#3151917 - 07/26/10 04:33 PM Re: Friday update [Re: zerocinco]  
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Originally Posted By: zerocinco
Look just down and to the right just above the roofline. Is that it?


Maybe; zooming in just makes for a bigger blur.


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#3151918 - 07/30/10 11:41 AM Re: Friday update [Re: Wklink]  
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porto72 Offline
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Hi zerocinco,

this is only an interpretation of Ford island during the Attack

you can see the tower on the left of the first tank (nearly in the middle of pic)
the drawing is based on this picture taken some time before the attack


according to Navy historical architect Jeffrey N. Dodge the tower "construction of the control tower was started in early 1941, but the air traffic control room in the top part of the tower was built after the Dec. 7 attack... It was a solid dark color then, but by 1943 had been painted the familiar red and white."
original text:
http://www.trackpads.com/forum/military-...trol-tower.html

#3151919 - 07/30/10 12:16 PM Re: Friday update [Re: porto72]  
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porto72 Offline
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By the way, the upper oirginal picture was taken on october 1941 (tower in construction)

This picture shows that the upper part of the tower (control building) is still missing. The tower looks like an industrial chimney:



Please don't get me wrong. I don't want to annoy you. In my Pearl Harbor map for il2 (wrong sim, i know) I also used the red/white complete ford island tower as seen in films like Tora, Tora, Tora and Pearl Harbor:


#3151920 - 07/30/10 05:21 PM Re: Friday update [Re: porto72]  
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zerocinco Offline
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Tchepone, Laos
You are not annoying us. It's entertaining to dig through the dusty files trying to find one little thing. It gives us a reason to post a lot more pictures, too! And unaccustomed as I am in on-line speak...or squeak...please do not take my response as anything other than what it is...a response and the logic behind our decision to paint the tower a color we know it was painted in its life.

Here goes:

The National Archives photos: The first photo, you admit is a long time before the day in question in terms of the Navy who likes to build things and likes to paint things. So we have to ignore that. The others are very brightly back lighted and the shadow side could be anything. So we must ignore those also.

We also have seen that artist's conception of Kakuichi Takahashi's bombing of the PBY base as the first attack of the morning. (sorry. don't have the name of the work or artist's name handy.)

His major building placement is correct. Ours are not in final position. But he has an advantage. Paint. He does not worry about the disappearing skins, jerky maneuvers or downright Crash to Black that happens when we overload the computers. His doesn't fly or explode. Ours does. So we will have fewer poly's dedicated to non-target items. The same goes of IL-2. We want TK's light and shadow, Deuces clouds, Hinch's ships and YAP's planes and you cannot have it all. But it's a great picture.

I flew over and took this shot...then I blew up the new hangar just to test the destroyed model.



One note on the artist's picture: Asphalt is oil and crushed rock. These two items determine the color of the surface. The dominant rock in Hawaii is....red lava. Most surfaces around the islands have a reddish cast depending upon when the surface was lain. While it may have been black, it was more likely like everything else is there. We are unlikely to diddle with Deuce's island tga very much so this is our offering. It also offers more depth perception when you land on it.

Before it is taken out of context, I will say that IL-2 is an excellent piece of work, has its own direction and all the 6-point type required to fend off whatever. I will accept IL-2's vision of Novaya Zemlya. I have crawled all over Ford Island...in color and I prefer mine. In their Pacific Fighters, this is Pearl Harbor:







So I assume the picture you posted is from an add-on and one done from a lot of research as is the artist's painting above. They have their research. We have ours. They also have their limitations as do we. I can see they used what they had in many instances. So do we (and two of them are much too white in the morning sun I see). TK didn't use all those simple forms because he is blind. He had to contend with the target computer and his vision was flying at altitude...and delivering a product on one CD. Ours is low altitude combat in slow aircraft so we need more detail and more computer.

Detail can become absurd and we are purveyors of absurd levels of detail. Why? Screenshots interest people. But the test of the product is if it's goals are accepted by the players as worthwhile and if TK's engine will deliver our interpretation. But I think I am an expert on what is seen in these situations and nobody should see the detail we provide. They should be doing everything they can not to become a crater and we are going to make that the key element because that is the story we wish to tell. For our story-telling, this is a 90% final version of how Ford Island looked just before the first bomb dropped.



I have also run across conflicting statements about when the tower was painted but the looming fact is that there is very little about it because there is so much more interesting about the day. I have little faith in a library that puts as much nonsense on their shelves as truth...the Internet. There are many more articles on alien abduction, the shroud of Turin and hobgoblins than there are on microbes in the human body.

But let us say that it was not red and white until January 1942...the earliest of the TWO statements I can find. Red and white? I have pictures and that is what I posted. Their offering is "a dark color". Rising Sun is supposed to be entertaining. So what "dark color" would our players find entertaining? I would have to guess. I don't have to guess about red and white. I have seen pictures. But here's an idea that is just as legitimate as any other guess:



...and I can get paid for that!

Having said that about absurd detail, here is some from this week as we start to wind this thing up. Some are of Oahu...which all took place on one day...and some are of Burma and Southeast Asia which was a war unto itself and the main concentration of Phase One.













Paint shop has the Lex...



The last piece for Phase One is in hand and headed for paint. I can't believe we were thinking of skipping Kunming because the expense of a one-mission airplane. Great fun.





Shots of the Kunming area terrain.



Our new runway to replace Desert3...pieces still in place from old set up. Takeoff and taxi programming today...thanks MPPD.



Don't stop looking for errors. They are not Easter Eggs. We want it to be as much like the day as we can create. But we got a deal on red and white paint so we went with it.

We knew we were playing to an audience of experts, fanatics and aficionados when we picked up this ball. We enjoy the challenge and the audience. If the players know that they are being offered the most accurate scenario, then they ease into the experience of being there much more easily...and that is our goal.

So find me a skin for a Ki-48 that is THE skin from the 21st Hikotai (82nd and 84th Chutai) stationed in Hanoi on the morning of 20 Dec 1941...and did they have Kana numbers on their rudders.
Otherwise I have to paint them red and white with a Snickers logo on them.

#3151921 - 07/30/10 10:44 PM Re: Friday update [Re: zerocinco]  
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Hinchinbrooke Offline
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Granted, Il-2 is one of the all-time greats, but I've never understood why they thought that a row of KGV's at Pearl would be a compelling feature.

#3151922 - 07/30/10 11:24 PM Re: Friday update [Re: Hinchinbrooke]  
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Boom Offline
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Culcairn
The detail contained in these screenies is amazing. Great to see the development of Pearl Harbour.

But a question if I may. In the IL-2 and CFS2 'mod add-ons' for Pearl the placement of the major ships are most exact, as are the various bases and buildings both on Ford Island and Hickam Field. Yet I've often thought that the Harbour and surrounds remaind sterile due to the lack of movement of all the small vessels scooting around the harbour. Any chance of some 'life' on the water?

Layout wise the following link is the clearest view I've ever found of Pearl Harbour itself on that fateful day.
http://www.webgalactic.com/pearl/map.html

And this link shows a map of just how wideranging the Japanese attacks were:
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1649.html


"Somewhere out there is page 6!"
"But Emillo you promised ....... it's postpone"
ASWWIAH Member
#3151923 - 07/31/10 12:20 AM Re: Friday update [Re: Boom]  
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zerocinco Offline
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Tchepone, Laos
Unlikely

Last edited by zerocinco; 07/31/10 03:07 AM.
#3151924 - 08/01/10 11:03 AM Re: Friday update [Re: zerocinco]  
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porto72 Offline
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Hi zerocinco,

the picture of Pearl HArbor was taken from my Mod-project of the Hawaiian Islands for IL-2. It took me over half of a year to complete it:







I also wasn't able to find old photos of the prewar Tower under construction so I decided to place the complete red/white Tower on the map. It looks so much better on Ford Island, so I can fully understand your decision.

What I like about your representation of Pearl Harbor is that you used original buildings. They are much more authentic. But one of the best features of your products are the very atmospheric and authentic missions. Unfortunatly forgotten by most of the last combat sims you demonstrated how to deliver the historical atmosphere of the combat situations and their enviroments (YAP2). Keep it on! I hope rising sun will be as good as YAP2!!!

Do you plan to integrate the other airfields on Oahu (Kaneohe, Wheeler, Hickam, Ewa ...)?

#3151925 - 08/01/10 06:00 PM Re: Friday update [Re: porto72]  
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zerocinco Offline
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Tchepone, Laos
We could not do Wheeler and that is a major distraction. Flattening the hill between Haliewa and Pearl looked horrible. So we decided upon moving the major action to Hickam. That worked out okay because we don't have the old bombers that were parked at Hickam, a bomber base. Too much $$ and we would never fly them.

We have Ewa and Kaneohe. Ewa has a strip. Kaneohe, we hope the PBY's will get us by. Again, flattening the peninsula was going to be ugly. Our other choice is a custom tile with the strip painted on it. Since we have nobody leaving the ground from either of those two places, it might be acceptable to the player. That remains to be seen.

I have admired your work for two years. I knew someone was insanely accurate and you are to be commended. That is an accomplishment that we use for our research knowing you had thumbed through every possible source to do that. You acknowledge the port the AAF had at Hickam, Hospital Point, and base housing...which we put in the roads for but might skip the detail. Right now we our lights dim when the swarm arrives and we must choose between cutting BMP size or cutting poly's. Testing will prove which it will be.

#3151926 - 08/01/10 06:36 PM Re: Friday update [Re: zerocinco]  
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porto72 Offline
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Is it possible to gain good fps with all those zeros, vals and kates flying around the battleship row? That was my problem. You need good hardware to fly with my map full of those old battlewaggons.
A bitmap of wheeler would be a good compromise, perhaps some buildings for the schofield barracks? You made such nice 3D-objects of the barracks on Ford Island and Hickam.

Do you plan to make missions for Guadalcanal (also interesting from the japanese side), Coral Sea, Port Moresby (perhaps fly with/against the trio of aces from Lae (Saburo Sakai and colleagues), Darwin, Rabaul, Iwo Jima, Midway, the airraid against the Yamato? The Yamato would be wonderful! There are a lot of possible scenarios to rebuild all those aircombats. And do not forget the mission: death of Adm. Yamamoto or the b25 Doolitle Raid starting from the Hornet. Oh it is better to stop now. I don't want to put your team under too much pressure.
Let us wait, the first sceenshots are very promising.

#3151927 - 08/01/10 08:18 PM Re: Friday update [Re: porto72]  
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Detroit, Michigan USA
Allow me to chime in here. Way back when the Boss brought this whole idea to the table, Doolittles raid was a big discussion. We got the rough model Hornet from the Hinchinbrooke shipyards and we worked out the CAT setup with sixteen B-25's on her deck. Placement, timing etc. It needs fine tuning.

So at this point I'd say yes to that one.

#3151928 - 08/01/10 09:02 PM Re: Friday update [Re: porto72]  
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Hinchinbrooke Offline
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porto72,

Out of interest, what ship models did you use for Battleship Row in your Il-2 Pearl Harbor mod? It's hard to tell from the shots you provided................. nice though they are.

#3151929 - 08/01/10 10:09 PM Re: Friday update [Re: Hinchinbrooke]  
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zerocinco Offline
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Tchepone, Laos
Porto,

If we put your detail into the harbor, I think it would choke. We had to introduce reduced LOD's to get Pearl to work smoothly. Another thing is that we limit the aircraft to those which the story-teller saw or would have seen. Of course, the player has the pieces and the options to create every mission that day and we might even provide a list and details. But we will only run those that are sequential, unique and entertaining...which means you level bomb once in the Harbor. The action on the periphery is more fluid and less restricted as you can imagine. Even then, while you are maneuvering over Kaneohe, someone will blow up a battleship out of sight and the game will lug while it goes through the procedure to replace the model with the destroyed model.

Wake is easy. There is not much for the game to paint so we can run numerous things that we cannot at Pearl. It's a work of art to me.

Burma is the jewel, though. Not so dense that the game has troubles and small unit sizes. 21 bombers doesn't do a thing even with full clouds and jungle. It's a very nice looking set up. Every angle is a photo op.

Before release, we might revisit Wheeler but Kaneohe is not likely to get a real runway. We have one mission which originated at Wheeler and took place over Kaneohe. We have two missions from Haliewa which has a turf strip (which currently looks like spinach salad). I think smoke rising from Wheeler would add a lot to the scene since everyone is likely to be expecting it.

Our plan is to present the war to the end as long as there are identifiable pilots...from any country. We don't want to just retell the tale of the victors. We want to tell stories of pilots without relating them to politics or leaders. The Japanese pilots will be in the stories until the last days. Edward says we can do any of the missions I sent him so all we need is ships and planes after Phase One goes out. What we won't do is turn it into a boring shooting gallery.

Phase One is Pearl Harbor, Wake Island and those missions up until ~ 7 Feb 42 and a Hurricane mission flown by J F Barrick. That means it includes the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse by bombers from Saigon. IJAAF flights into Thailand are included. Then, of course, Kunming and Rangoon.

Phase Two opens at Darwin. It includes Guadalcanal, Doolittle, more Burma, Coral Sea, Midway, China, Eastern Solomons and the sinking of the Wasp, Hornet and Hiei.

We are open to any suggestion and will try to do it if time and money allow. The game engine is willing but it puts a lot of effort into painting pretty pictures for us.

Thanks for your interest. We really appreciate the opinion of an expert.

#3151930 - 08/02/10 05:36 AM Re: Friday update [Re: zerocinco]  
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Mike963 Offline
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Mauritius
Interesting to read the development work in making this as authentic and entertaining as possible. This gives us a better understanding of the problems involved. Makes us more appreciative of your dedication to this creation.


Win7-64bit, Alienware X51, Graphics card NVDIA GeForce GTX 555
In Mauritius, we are once again taught how to live life: to take one's time, to socialize and mix up with different people, to taste unknown flavours, to admire nature and to appreciate the first light of dawn...
#3151931 - 08/02/10 12:20 PM Re: Friday update [Re: Hinchinbrooke]  
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porto72 Offline
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Hi,

I used imported models(from Google 3d-object-bank) for the Arizona, Maryland and Oklahoma. I was forced to learn to work with 3d-software and importer/exporter software:



Though your models are by far better than my imported models.

#3151932 - 08/06/10 11:13 PM Re: Friday update [Re: porto72]  
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zerocinco Offline
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Tchepone, Laos
Details...Lots of them to take care of. Things we put on a list and charged ahead that we now have to go back and fix.

Some shots.

Looking at black tarmac on Ford Island.



Torpedo test. Missed. Flew all the way to the target and missed! No sake for me.



AI planes hit the California.



Last plane in Phase One complete with grease and mud. What I would give for a picture of one from that group on that day.







Drops all the bombs on time and on target.



Little details from 411220 Sandy Sandell.



Roundels too far forward on the wings from this angle.



Scenes from the last mission in Phase One. 420207 J F Barrick.











Burma will be fought over in several Phases from Rangoon to Imphal and back again but this is the last installment for Phase One.



ahhh....#$$%^&*!!



Long week. Long week ahead. No breaks until Rising Sun/ Kyokujisu is out.

Going out for sushi.

Kanpai!

Last edited by zerocinco; 08/06/10 11:15 PM.
#3151933 - 08/06/10 11:39 PM Re: Friday update [Re: zerocinco]  
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porto72 Offline
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Wow, you even improved Ford Island. It is looking very good now.

#3151934 - 08/08/10 08:19 AM Re: Friday update [Re: porto72]  
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wheelsup_cavu Offline
Lifer
wheelsup_cavu  Offline
Lifer

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Posts: 26,564
Corona, California
I like the bridge. biggrin


Wheels


Cheers wave
Wheelsup_cavu

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