Hello everyone, just returned from a day's skiing with my wife. The weather in Bavaria and Austria has been perfect for it, cold and alot of snow.

Old Dux: Hunting your Olga might just be a Frau To Far for me. If my wife finds out I am chasing such a, shall we say redoubtable, woman it could end very badly for me. Of course the same could be said if I actually were to catch Olga. :p At any rate, I will put my fears aside and go forth, hopefully to return holding my shield, and with other important body parts intact also.

JR2: What an interesting story. Having an apparition(hope I spelled that correctly) save the German pilot was a great twist. Hopefully the British pilot makes it home before his tank runs dry. I made a connection, probably wrong, between yout home state and the British pilot's name. I enjoy reading about the American Civil War, and if I remember correctly a very good General named Pettigrew came from North Carolina. I believe he was killed during the retreat after the battle of Gettysburg, but I could be wrong. You wrote a first rate story that I enjoyed very much.
The faction you spoke of in Germany is very small and has no seats in the Federal Government. They do have a small number of seats in the state of Sachsen. Rest assured that the vast majority of Germans consider them a fringe party and the Federal Government is taking steps to make sure the don't gain a vehicle for spreading their stupidity.

SNAFU and JR2: A bio of my grandfather. Let me dig up some photos and see if I can scan them correctly. Here is a barebones bio to start with. My Grandfather, Wilhelm Ernst Roth, was born in the town Erding, which is about 15 kilometers northeast of Munich in 1917. He joined the luftwaffe as an enlisted pilot in 1937. During the war he was credited with 20 victories while flying with II/JG26 from 1 September 1939 to 14 November 1943. After that date he was in instructor pilot until January 1945 when he returned to active operations with JG7. He scored no victories while flying with JG7, but managed to keep from getting shot down himself. He never served on the Eastern Front, but his two brothers did. His older brother was in the artillery and was listed as missing in action on 04 September 1942. His younger brother served in a reconnaissance battalion and was killed in action on 29 October 1943, after which my grandfather was withdrawn from active frontline flying as the only surviving son. My Grandfather was shot down only once during the war, on 03 June 1940, by a Bloch 152 of all things. He was released from captivity after the fall of France.

Incidentally, he was credited with three victories during The Battle of Britain. His first was a Spitfire from 72 Squadron on 01.09.40 at 2:50pm CET. Most likely the aircraft was flown by SGT N.R. Norfolk who managed to crash land his plane at Croydon with a badly damaged tail. The plane was later repaired. The second was a Hurricane claimed over Ingatestone on 03.09.40 at 11:40am CET. The Hurricane belonged to 257 Squadron and was flown by PO C.R. Bon Seigneur who baled out but was killed when his chute failed to open. The last victory Grandfather claimed during the battle period was a Spitfire belonging to 603 Squadron on 07.10.40 at 11:40am CET. The plane was flown by FO H.K.F. Matthews who was killed in the crash near Hurst Farm, Tenterden.

That is a capsule biography. If any of you are interested, I can write a more complete one. I will scan some photos and attach them, if my computer skills are up to it.

Sincerely,
Greif1

Folks,

Greif1:

Quote:".... a Frau too far" I like that and it is perfectly true if speaking about Olga. Not since the 300 pound, 80-year-old Hungarian stripper Vulgari Tease squeezed into a sequined g-string and waddled unsteadily onto a Parisian stage has there been so many universally accepted reasons to cover one's eyes, hold one's nose and retch.

You probably have no idea how much I appreciate your allowing us the privilege of reading your grandfather's bio. There was quite a lot of detail as it is, particularly the information about those downed aircraft and their pilots. An even more detailed bio would be an interesting read for sure. I hope that you can soon scan and post a photo. I have done a Google search for a photo but have not found one.

I am adding your grandfather's bio to our HWH archive. Again, thank you for posting it. This is a first for our thread and probably the forum.

As for my story, thank you for your very kind remarks. The RAF pilot did indeed make it home and spent the night with his pals sloshing down gallons of beer and remembering their fallen comrade.

It sounds as if the rumors of great skiing in Bavaria were not exaggerated.

You mention what my great grandmother (who actually knew confederate soldiers)referred to as our un-Civil War. One of my relatives fought at Fort Fisher and the battle of Bentonville and surrendered with Johnston here in NC.

Sherman's troops passed through our small town near the end of the war and burned our mill. Last summer I dug up a un-Civil War era medicine bottle near the old spring on our property. Sherman's troops watered their horses there. It was made in NY and may have held laudanum. Two summers ago one of my son's friends dug up a cannon ball from the period. A bomb squad from Fort Bragg came up and took it from him.

I have just recently been reading a bit of un-Civil War history in which General Pettigrew's name was prominent. Perhaps it was a subconscious action my using that name? If so I was not aware of the connection. I do often include in the names of my characters some minor reference to their probable strengths or weaknesses or to highlight some facet of their personality. Not this time however. I have no idea why.

Dux's Ghost story, your tales from the German side of the battle, and the poem "Highwayman" all contributed their bit to my choices in this quasi historical tale. Dux loves the macabre and is much better at writing fearsome stories than am I. This is a man with a severely twisted mind. And lucky for us that makes all the difference. He can always get my creative juices flowing.

I have no doubt that many a frightful apparition was seen by pilots horribly wounded in action and suffering from loss of blood and great fatigue. I'm not entirely certain however that in the case of our pal Karl this was an apparition......

In the numerous accounts of the battle of Gettysburg published, writers have generally referred to the last effort made by the Confederate troops as "Pickett's charge," and in almost every instance have conveyed the idea that no troops but Pickett's division took an active part in that fierce and tremendous struggle.

It is probable that Pickett's division, which up to that time had taken no part in the battle, was mainly relied upon for the final assault; but whatever may have been the first plan of attack, the division under Pettigrew went into it as part of the line of battle, and from the commencement of the advance to the closing death grapple, his right brigade was the directing one. General Pettigrew, was that day in the thickest of the fire. He was killed in a skirmish a few days later. IMHO no more earnest and gallant officer served in the Confederate army.

Pettigrew was born in North Carolina on July 4, 1828, at Bonarva plantation on the shore of Lake Phelps. He was the youngest son and eighth of nine children of Ebenezer and Ann Blount Shepard Pettigrew. His father was an able agriculturalist, operating several large plantations in Tyrell and Washington counties.

In 1843, at age 14, Pettigrew entered the University of North Carolina where, it was said, his academic prowess in Latin and Greek was unequaled. President James K. Polk and secretary of the Navy attended the 1847 commencement ceremonies in Chapel Hill where Pettigrew gave the valedictory address. They were so impressed by his genius and poise, they gave the 18 year old graduate a professorship at the US Naval Observatory.

In 1859, war broke out as the Kingdom of Sardinia sought to overthrow Austrian domination of Italy. Pettigrew rushed to Europe and offered his services to the King of Sardinia, but alas, an armistice was signed, so he saw no action.
When South Carolina seceded, Pettigrew was elected colonel of the SC First Regiment of Rifles and was appointed chief military aid to Governor Francis Pickens.

After North Carolina seceded, Pettigrew followed the example of Lee and offered his services to his native state. He was soon elected Colonel of the 22nd North Carolina and was promptly sent to the Potomac. Pettigrew soon established the policy of eating the same food as the privates and denying himself anything he could not offer his men. Heeding what he had learned in Europe, Pettigrew took extraordinary health and sanitation precautions to protect his men from epidemics.

While serving at the Potomac, Pettigrew was promoted Brigadier General, but refused the promotion, declaring that no one should be a general unless he had led men in combat. Later, amidst heavy fighting, Pettigrew was ordered to accept the promotion and placed in command of North Carolina, Arkansas, Georgia and Virginia troops.

During the Peninsula campaign when McClellan's Union troops approached Richmond, Pettigrew's troops were among the troops in opposition. A musket ball pierced Pettigrew's throat and shoulder, permanently disabling his right arm. When soldiers tried to carry him to the rear, he ordered them back to the front ranks. Pettigrew lost consciousness on the battlefield and was captured.

In August of 1862, he was exchanged for a Northern general in Confederate hands and immediately reported for duty, though he was partly incapacitated. Soon, he was given command of the 26th North Carolina brigade which came to be known as Pettigrew's Brigade and was one of the most distinguished in the war.

On June 1, 1863, Pettigrew's Brigade joined the Army of Northern Virginia under General Robert E. Lee on the march to Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. The first day of the Battle of Gettysburg, Pettigrew's Brigade attacked and, in desperate fighting, drove the Union forces off their positions at McPherson's Ridge. Casualties were tremendous in this half hour fight. In fact the 26th North Carolina lost more then any one regiment in any day in the entire war, North or South. Pettigrew's division superior, Harry Heth, was wounded so Pettigrew was given command of the entire division.

On the third day of Gettysburg, this division took part in the famous assault on Cemetery Ridge, often referred to as Pickett's Charge. While some of Pickett's men went up to the stone wall, some of Pettigrew's men went over the stone wall.

Though Pickett directed his division from a distance, Pettigrew was one who went up to the wall and was one of the last to return to Confederate lines. Thus, Pettigrew's Brigade filled out the middle part of North Carolina's Confederate boast “First at Bethel, Farthest to the front of Gettysburg and Chickamauga. Last at Appomattox.”

Pettigrew was shot in the stomach during the retreat after Gettysburg. He was told that the only hope of saving his life was to be immobilized and left behind where Union doctors might find him. He refused saying that he would rather die then be in another Yankee prison. He was carried to Bunker Hill where he died two weeks after his 35th birthday. Funeral services were attended by a huge crowd at the North Carolina Capitol Square in Raleigh.

A South Carolina friend wrote of Pettigrew, “more than anything he loved liberty, but he felt that to love liberty was an empty mockery unless that love was exhibited in sacrifice which its acquisition requires.”

We in North Carolina are proud of General Pettigrew and his brave men.

Hello everyone!

JR2: Thank you for your insightful and educating history of General Pettigrew. I have studied the Battle of Gettysburg alot and knew that he took part in the great charge on the last day of the battle, but I did not know he went as far as he did. My interest in the battle, and the war in general, is because I had some distant relatives who fought in it. On my mother's family side, several men immigrated to America between 1835 and 1840. One of my severals times great uncles was a member of the 2nd Wisconsin Regiment, which was part of the Union Army's famous Iron Brigade. He was killed on 01 July 1863, most likely during the fighting in and around McPhersons Woods. He was probably fighting against the brave men of your 26th North Carolina Regiment. You are right about the casualties, the units essentially destroyed each other. I think the 19th Indiana Regiment, which was part of the Iron Brigade, suffered close to the same casualty rate as the 26th North Carolina. At any rate they were all very brave men fighting for what they thought was right. That makes them like most soldiers throughout history, and more importantly makes them worthy of our respect.

I will see about writing a longer biography of my Grandfather. My initial scans of pictures did not turn out too well and I am going to get my cousin, who is very good with computers, to help. Hopefully in a few days I will have the biography ready with a picture or two.

Sincerely,
Greif1

All,

JR2, you ole devil. A tale from you truely does signal the re-activation of the squadron. And what a fine contribution it is. As usual I had no idea where your story was headed until the revealing lines pulled into the station. You have always managed to create something totally fresh to string into the tale that ties it all together and you dont disappoint here. I got but only a few lines in before your excellent writing skills began to show brightly:

"Inside the dark cockpit, a figure silhouetted by the dim glow of a few un-shattered instruments stares out of the cockpit into the void beyond. His cracked pilot’s goggles are pushed up onto his forehead. There is a dark streak of crimson trickling down past his left eye and there are terrible burns on his left hand. The taste of blood is strong in his mouth yet the pilot is going into shock and no longer notices the throbbing pain."

Nicly done, very nicely done!

Greif1, the bio of your grandfather compares incredibly well with the history of many of the great WWII aces from all sides. It is no wonder you are so proud of him. Twenty victories while not serving on the Eastern front is quite an impressive record. I say that of course, only because the already seasoned Luftwaffe pilots were able to build huge victory numbers particularly early on, because the Soviet airforce was not up the challenge when the war began. I now recall you speaking before of the loss of both of his brothers in Russia. How horrible that must have been. The details of your grandfathers victories during the BoB are facinating. I would be thrilled to hear more when and if you want to share them.

All,

Greif1, I was able to find the names of the Luftwaffe pilots with 20 victories. Among those listed is your grandfather, Ltn. Wilhem Roth of JG26. What is striking to me is the vast number of these men who did not survive the war.

I had no idea that Germany employed a policy in which the last remaining child would be pulled from combat duty. We have such a policy in our armed forces but with policies in the German armed forces of the time like "fly till you die" I didnt realize they would have done that. Probably saved your grandfather which ultimely brought a fine grandson (you) into the world.

Here is the list of Luftwaffe pilots with 20 victories:

20 Artner Rudolf Ofw. 5
20 Davier Heino von Uffz. 52 KIA on 25.12.44 in Luftkampf.
20 Eberhardt Paul Ofw. 52 KIA on 27.11.43 by Flak.
20 Engel Wilhelm Oblt. DK? NJG1, NJG4, NJG6
20 Flecks Reinhard Ofw. 1 MIA on 26.12.44 after Luftkampf with P-51.
20 Förg Rasso Fw. 3 KIA on 23.4.44 in Luftkampf.
20 Goralski Fw. 77
20 Gosemann Heinz Fw. 3 KIA on 24.4.44 in Luftkampf with P-51.
20 Hammel Kurt Oblt. 5, 27, 77
20 Happatsch Hans-Joachim Uffz. 54 MIA on 9.7.43.
20 Heckmann Günther Ltn. 51, 1, 7
20 Hegener Wilhelm Uffz. 51
20 Heym Günther Ltn. EP 51
20 Hübl Rudolf Ofw. 1 WIA on 27.6.44.
20 Hübner Gerhard Uffz. 52 KIA on 6.3.43 in Luftkampf.
20 Jung Harald Hptm. EP 51
20 Klassen Ferdinand Ltn. 52 KIA on 22.4.44 in Luftkampf with Boston.
20 Lehmann Alfred Fw. DK 52 KIA on 11.7.43 in Luftkampf.
20 Meissner Hans Ltn. DK NJG3
20 Munderloh Georg Uffz. EP 54 MIA on 6.3.43.
20 Munzert Hermann Ltn. EP 53 Staffelführer. WIA on 31.1.43 in Luftkampf. DOW 6.2.
20 Pohl Ottokar Fw. 77
20 Prestele Ignaz Hptm. EP 53, 2 KIA on 4.5.42.
20 Richter Ernst Ofw. 54, 11
20 Roth Willi Ltn. DK 26
20 Schalk Paul Fw. 5
20 Schauder Paul Hptm. DK 26
20 Scheyda Erich Ofhr. DK 26 KIA on 7.5.44 in Luftkampf with P-47.
20 Schicketanz Otto Uffz. 52 KIA on 19.8.44.
20 Schneider Gottfried Fw. DK NJG3
20 Schneider Walter Oblt. DK 26 Staffelkapitän. KIFA on 22.12.41.
20 Schulze Kurt Ltn. 5
20 Schwarz Gerhard Uffz. 51 MIA on 21.6.43.
20 Sommer Gerhard Hptm. RK 11 Staffelkapitän. KIA on 12.5.44 in Luftkampf. 15 Viermots.
20 Spiess Wilhelm Major EL ZG26 Kommandeur. KIA on 27.1.42 by Flak. 300+ ff
20 Tritsch Willi Oblt. RK II(S)/LG2, Sch.G.1 60 pz, 580~ ff.
20 Westphal Hans-Jürgen Hptm. 51, 26, 53 Priller says 22.
20 Wiesmahr Gustav Ltn. 52 KIFA on 5.10.43.

Hello everyone!

SNAFU: Thank you for your kind comments. Grandfather's 20 victories were a fine accomplishment. Talking with him was very interesting. I owe nearly all of who I am to both he and my Father. One thing that always struck me was Grandfather's honesty. By his own admission he was a very cautious pilot and pointed out that he scored his first victory in May 1940 and his last in October 1943. He always said with a smile that he was one of the best practicianers of the "one pass and away" technique. I found his honesty and openess about himself and also how hw answered questions about difficult topics refreshing. I learned alot from him. My Father still has his awards from the war and a few uniform items. He has them displayed in his study and guests always comment on the, not always positively. To the negative comments my Father always answers that the awards were fairly earned and that they will be displayed in the spirit that they were earned. I have learned a great deal from my Father in that respect.

Germany did have a sole surviving son rule, that families could invoke. It was in effect until late 1944 when it was rescinded. Many in the Wehrmacht volunteered to continue to serve in spite of the rule. One of Grandfather's Gruppen Kommandeure, Hauptmann Johannes Sifert, was one. He unfortunately was shot down and killed in November 1943 after scoring his 57th victory. Overall, the young men of Germany paid a terrible price during the war. Today, even small villages have memorials listing those lost. Sometimes the list is quite long and does give one pause when you realize how many fell from such a small area.

I would be glad to post the details of my Grandfather's war service, including a detailed listing of his victories, if you are interested. Again thank you for the kind comments.

Sincerely,
Greif1

Folks,

SNAFU:

Thank you for reading my story and for your friendly comments. A new story from you would be well received old Pal.

Thanks also for posting those names and stats. I also found this pilot listed in one of my own volumes about the Luftwaffe.

Greif1:

I had no idea that your relatives were "Damn Yankees" Many Europeans seemed to side with the southern cause. We are all on the same side now and that is what really matters. SNAFU's folks were D-Ys too and I cheerfully ignore that 'cause he's such a cool fellow.

Do write more and post a pic asap.

Dux:

C51 says he will be posting something today. Watch for it. In addition to everything else he's been through recently, some dastardly chap stole C51's car from the school parking lot last Friday. You might want to bring that back SNAFU, he has to walk miles to work and it is always snowing in Canada.

Wonderful information on your Grandfather Grief. Time has a way of dulling the hatred and ignorance of the past in many respects. When I was younger I used to ask myself how the "common" German could have supported Hitler. Now after living a while longer, I can easily see how the promise and delivery of a stronger country and more prosperous life could sway how many felt about the goverment.

JR2.

Very nice story, I can easily see that play out in my mind's eye and I'm quite sure that many a "macrabre" scene was viewed by those in the field.

Greetings all,
thanks for your concern lads, but fear not. I was not shot down and taken captive. Even more to the point I was not taken prisoner by Olga and handcuffed and...ah never mind, that didn't happen either Old Dux. I wasn't eaten by wolves in Algonquin Park.
No, merely busy with commitments and unable to find the time to post.
JRT, thanks for keeping me informed of the HWH happenings while I was busy trying to keep the fiddle player rosined up and the little flautists tootling happily.
What an active place HWH has become I am thrilled to say. SNAFU's brainchild is indeed a going concern. Plenty of great stories to catch up on, postings by many of the Old Guard. Okay, maybe not that old. I speed read through a few of the stories and am pleased to see that the quality of the literature remains in top form.
Greif1, I was fascinated to read the details of your grandfather, thank you for posting it. He is a true hero, and like all true heroes, was above all a fine grandfather. I would love to read more of his history if you would care to add it.

Folks,

Wildman:

Thank you for taking the time to read my story and for your favorable comment.

C51:

Welcome back. The thread has indeed been rejuvenated by all the new stories posted by Mad, Dux and Greif1. Perhaps my poorly written mess will not chase too many away?

Now where the devil is Dux? One of the reasons I wrote that story was in response to his recent ghost story and because I well know that he enjoys stories with a supernatural twist.

Where be ye Dux?