Hi Cockpit builders,

I would like to introduce my new controller project. This is going to be an accurate replica of the KG13A Steuerknüppel. There are several replicas on the market today. What makes mine a bit special, that it is -just like to original- made of aluminium. I would like to pin down, that this won't be offered for purchase. This is a pure hobby and fun for me.

I had been close to buy a copy from the Tarmac guys, when a friend of mine who works for a famous vintage aircraft restaurator workshop in Hungary offered me a rough casting of the famous KG13. I couldn't resist to buy it and I immediately started to make a plan with that.

And right here we are now. I have the casting and a lot of ideas how to comply it.
What i can see right now that i will need a lot of time and energy of handcrafting, engineering, some money and a lot of help from people who have information about the steuerknüppel, or have some good ideas about how to come over the coming technical problems. I know that on this forum there are plenty of both, and i would apreciate their help a lot.

To have the close to accurate dimensions of the original column i bought a resin 1:1 replica of it. That is what i will use to copy the grip the trigger and the buttons. I will also use my engineering experience and 3D CAD system to solve some challange around the trigger mechanism.

But the first step is to refine and polish the rough surface of the casting to achive a smooth metal base to work further with. Ok enough from the introduction, here are some pictures!:)The pictures were taken adfter 2,5hours of rough refining work:


KG13A-5 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


KG13A-4 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


KG13A-3 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


KG13A-2 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


KG13A-1 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

Good luck on this project and it'll be great if you could post some updates from time to time. Where did you find the resin 1:1 model of the KG13? Was it an Italian modeler named Maurizio?
Regards,
Derek

Great idea Maister

I wish, your project will be a success.

kind regards

Boandl

Hi,

thank you for the kind words. I will keep sending posts time by time to keep this thread updated.
Yes, the resin model is bought from Maurizio from Italy.

regards
MM

Wow! Have fun with your project!

Hi,

Very very slow processing. We started to working on it with the CNC milling machine. Hopefuly it will be finished soon.
Now comes the upper part which is quite challanging.


KG13-machining1 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


KG13-machining2 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

Update 3.

Preliminary machining is done. Further tuning will come when i will have all the parts to mount onto the stick.

I ordered some replica KG13 parts from germany. The trigger, junction box, button clip, and some other things are on the way from there. That is the most expensive part of the project:P

The most challanging part will be to simulate the bakelit grip with diamond pattern. I consulted with some modellers and they suggested to use 2 component epoxy clay. I will use milliput and Pro-Create mixture. The pattern will be copied from a bicycle grip which has a very similar pattern.
I worry a bit about this so if anyone has a better idea, just let me know:)

The knobs and their sockets will be machined from ABS plastic. Will be fitted with Knitter momentary switches.

And some pictures:


DSC_0009_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0008_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0003_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0001_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

Amazing! Great stuff MMaister!

Thanks Tbag:)

The postman brought some nice stuff today:D


DSC_0011_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

Very nice work and project!
Where did those parts come from, the Tarmac guys?

If you need pictures of a real KG13 stick, I found these:













I have two real KG13s in my collection, if you need measurements or other pics
let me know.

Good luck

Hi AV8R,

no, the parts came from Horst Reinecker from Germany. He is a maker of replica luftwaffe aircraft parts.It is his former webshop:
http://www.aeroart.de/en/index.php

Thank you for the pictures. But I think that I have already downloaded all the KG13 pics from the internet:)

There is one part of the stick what is still quite mysterious for me. To keep the trigger in firing position there is a plunger here:



Unfortunately I don't have information on the specs of this part. What is its shape, what are the dimensions of it?
If you could take some macro pictures and make some measurments for me about this part that would be fantastic.

cheers
MMaister

MMaister

This pointed part is one "pressure ball" (dont know correctly name), like:


Thanks to Inigohe from Escuadron69 for this picture.

When you flip trigger down, this ball lock in this recess point in "ready to fire" position.



When you need need put trigger in safety position, just push the trigger forward with your finger, the ball leave the recess point and the coil spring do the rest.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Sokol1

Hi Sokol,

thanks for sharing the info. I am afraid it is only partly true.
I inspected a bit my parts and consulted with Herr Reinecker, and I think I have the solution.

It is true that a sping plunger hold the trigger in a firing position.

First of all the recessed point you indicate is on the top when the trigger is locked in "armed" position (so it is useless), but there is no "recess" point needed on the trigger at all.
It would be sily solution, becouse it would also lock the movement of the trigger toward the firing button.
The engineers at Argus were very smart guys. They did it like this:

There is a ball pressed by a spring toward the trigger as you showed as well. But the ball is blocked from falling out only by the trigger itself.
They made a path for this ball around the shaft of the trigger.


triggermech1 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

You can see, that the ball runs freely around the trigger shaft but there is one slope with an edge to block it. When you "arm" the trigger you force the ball over this slope. The edge will hold it until you force it over back again. But you can move the trigger freely towards the fire button.

Clever, elegant and simple. German engineering:D

Nice.

My thought was based on observation of pictures from Web, since I never saw a real KG-13, and lost the opportunity to observe closely his Russian version on Mig-15 in local museum storage.

These pictures show this slope very well:


http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3818/kg13cneu1.jpg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6821/kg146.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4302/kgf13d12.jpg


Thank you.

BTW - I dont find prices in Aeroart page, is need email asking?

Sokol1

Wow, I haven`t seen these pictures. I like the one with the special double button pushing trigger:)

You should mail for prices. I can tell you they are not cheap:P

The double button version is KG-14, used in He-129, early FW-190...
The lever in right side (front view) select Weapon1, Weapon2, All.

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6821/kg146.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3305/kg141.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2683/kg143.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5695/kg142.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6821/kg146.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4931/kg148.gif

Sokol1

Hi Pit builders,

Happy New Year to All!

After a longer brake I worked a lot today on the steuerknüppel. Now it realy starts to look and feel like a KG13:)
Today I installed the trigger mechanism. It was the most scary part of the whole project, and i am very happy with the result. There was a lot of measuring, trying before every single hole drilling, but it was well spent time.
The mech. works as it should. The torsion spring holds the trigger in safe position, and the ball with the push spring keeps it in firing position. With a little push it jumps back to safe.

On the pictures the trigger shaft is not fully inserted and the spring is not trimmed. I will do it only at the final assembly.

I also mounted the junction box and the cable holder.

And the pics:


DSC_0898 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0899 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0900 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0901 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0906 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0905 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0907 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

This is really comming together. Thanks for the update!

Cheers!

It's looking really, really nice. Great attention to detail.

What are your plans for the stick base?

Wow! What a great piece of engineering.

How did you manage to crosshatch the trigger padle ? Was it cast like that or, did you do it manually ?

Well done anyway.

Andy

Hi Chaps,

thanks for your kind words!

Valisk_61

I am not sure yet. I planned to make it compatible with the Tarmac base, but since they still don't have ffb option and I don't like the no resistance idea, I will probably build one on my own.

AndyB,

The trigger all together was too tricky for me to build, I saved some hours and a few headaches and bought it ready from www.aeroart.de

The next project is also in sight. I have to build matching pedals from these

VO101MMaister

Been a while since I was at this thread, youve come a long long way.
You have awesome skills.

It turns out that I bought a KG13 stick from Horst years ago. He claimed it was a real one,
but Ive heard that hes into making quality repros since. Im not saying he lied, and Im not
convinced what he sold me was real either. Regardless its nice and I also have a bonifide
real one. I also have a single Me109 rudder pedal that was recovered from a BOB crash site.
I will get some pictures posted soon of both the sticks and pedal soon for reference purposes.

Do you plan on using Bodinars USB controller board to make your stick/rudder functional?
Also, do you plan on making a FW190 or Me109 throttle? If so, I think Id be very interested.

Hi AV8R,

I would love to see pictures about your collection!
I saw some pictures of Horst's replicas, they are realy good. I had a good impression on him, and I know he has a very good reputation among vintage aircraft restaurators. I don't belive that he would risk it by selling fake parts as original. My two cent is that one must be very careful with these items. They cost a fortune now and I think there are lot of fakes on the market. Especialy modified Mig grips. So buying these things on the internet are out of question for me.

I will definitely use Leo Bodnar's fantastic controllers. But at the moment I don't plan to build an additional throttle. In one hand I think it would be too much disadvantage in an online dogfight to lose the benefits of proper HOTAS throttle (I lose a lot of HOTAS function anyway with the KG13 grip compared to my old TM Cougar), on the other hand the tarmac guys already made a very nice one, I would buy one from them.

VO101MMaister,

Great work, thanks for share!



To overcome the few functions in KG-13 Tarmac Aces, accord C6-Trolbug, now offer - as option - a HAT in B-Knof place (stylized as button, I think), whit press function (like Warthog middle HAT), so you have more 4/8 functions in KG-13.

http://delcure.simon.perso.sfr.fr/Tarmac/KG13/KG13_hat/KG13_hat01.jpg
http://delcure.simon.perso.sfr.fr/Tarmac/KG13/KG13_hat/KG13_hat02.jpg

Sokol1

VO101,

You said:



When I go to Horst's site, it says:
Since 31.12.04 AeroArt & Paerts does not longer exsist. The web pages will remain in the net for informational reasons. We thank all our costemers.

How did you buy a part if the business no longer exists, and what happened to Horst?

Sokol,

That is a great addtition to their product! Thx for sharing the info.

AV8R,

Horst closed both his shop and webshop ( I don`t know the reason behind) but he still has plenty parts on stock. So if you need something you can send an inquiry to him.

Normally I dont show my collectables, but on occasion I show a few of them.





Can you tell which stick came from Horst?

Hi AV8R,

thank you for sharing these treasures!

The first one must be a very rare bird. I guess the second "C" version must be the one from Horst. Anyway, both look fantastic!

Your Ruderpedale is pure, 100% history. I visited some WW2 crashsite excavations in Hungary. These crashed aircraft parts are just thrilling.


I will soon come back with new pictures. Finaly i managed to apply the diamond pattern plastic around the grip.:)

MMaister

Thank you for your kind words. Again your fab skills are... fabulous.
What do you do for a living, work in a fab shop?

As for the rudder pedal, it came from England and on the back side of the
wooden mounting is some more german written in pen: (its hand written script, so forgive if I miss spell)

In alte freuudidall aus fliegere
Hals und Beiulerich
Horrido
Noria aui 19.11.2002
Jrauk Hauke

Have any idea what this is saying, or who this is?

Id be interested in your electrical schematic that you make up for the KG13.
As an electrical engineer myself, these things interest me.

For the stick with the elecrical box, on the inside is a connection diagram.
It doesnt however, give the internal wiring diagram, just the post connections
that a blackshirt would care about when hooking up a wire harness, me thinks.

Hi AV8R,

I am a design engineer by living. But also I like to build scale models. I guess it is a good combination for this project:)

My german is less than acceptable, so i can't figure out everything.

In alte freuudidall aus fliegere - Don't have a clue. Something about pilots and their gladness
Hals und Beiulerich - That is easy: Hals und Beinbruch. Brake your neck and legs....kind of tradtional pilot's good luck wishes
Horrido -
Noria aui 19.11.2002
Jrauk Hauke

The electrical part is just coming. I haven't given much thought of it yet. I will use ABS plastic to make the buttons and their casing. The switches and the circuit will nothing have to do with the original. I will use switches from Leo Bodnar.

Today i finished the dimanond patterned plastic grip. Im the previous months I spent a lot of time with experimenting with materials and differnet technics. I am extremely thankful to some sculpture modeller guys from other forums who helped me a lot. Here is te result:


DSC_0911 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0914 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0916 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0918 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

B2 clip added.


DSC_0923 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0924 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

Industrial beauty.

MM,

I say this with the experience of having two KG13s as you know...

Hier Horst has _nothing_ on you. Simply remarkable workmanship my good man.
I seriously think you should write an article for SimHQ and show the process pics.
Call it... the rebirth of an Eagle... or some such.

Your mad skills remind of another guy I once new from Norway who made his own F16 cockpit.
I have his Cougar FCC and an ICP he had extra. Simply outstanding skills.

S!

I agree with AV8R. I'd love to know how you achieved that finish on the grip.

What a beautiful work of art.

Beautiful work, and well photographed too!

Thanks for the kind words chaps,

I don`t know how interesting is this for a simulation based website, but I will happily write a short article for SimHQ if they are interested.

Valistk_61
The "Fischhaut" finish was made of epoxy putty (mixture of Milliput and Pro Create).

What a fantastic work VO101MMaister! Congratulations!

I think i need some help with the electrical parts. I plan to use Leo Bodnar BU0836X controller.
Unfortunately the Knitter switch he is selling is too big for me. I need something smaller, good quality momentary switch.
Could you help me with this? I don`t know too much about electrical components. I don`t no what is compatible with his boar either.

Could you explain it to me, or suggest some types?

thank you

MM

Hi MM,

I know a bit about electronics and I'll try and help. What is the Knitter switch ? what does it look like ?

I've got one of Leo's boards in my sim as well. If you intend to only use a max of 12 switches it's dead simple. Take an ground wire from th board to one side of ALL the switches and a wire from the other side of EACH switch to a seperate Row input on the board. I don't think this board is capable of dealing with toggle type switches so they wil have to be momentary action type. Basically, any momentary action push button switch will be compatible with his board.

Hope this helps,

Andy

Better, I send you a email.

MM,

I think you have some good options to explore before looking to reinvent the wheel with a new switch...

1. Contact Horst for the switches he used to make his KG13s
2. Contact the guys selling the KG13 sim control stick
Tarmac Aces site, then go to KG13 stick
3. See what this other guy used that just posted his stick
4. Pull apart an old TM F16 stick and use its guts

If these dont pan out, ill try to help you find a micro momentary switch, like:
6mm x 6mm momentary switch
or
tactile switches

Then you can hide the Leo PCB inside the KG13 electrical box.

Thanks Chaps for the help, now at least I have an idea what should I have
I planned to buy some simple switches, and to ask the guys at my workplace to machine some sockets and caps from black plastic. But of course If they are already available, i am not dumb to work in vane.

Hans,

I sent a mail to you regarding the buttons. It is a pitty that you deleted the pictures of your steurknüppel. It looks amazing!!

Not really. This thread is about your work.
Email received.

MMaister,

For micro switch use the same used by CH Products (know for last longer), the OMRON tactile micro switch:

http://www.newark.com/omron-electronic-components/b3f-5050/tactile-switch/dp/88F4982?Ntt=88F4982

With these planed machined caps, fit perfectly.

Sokol1

Hi Sokol,

thanks for the tip!

Honestly I would like something similar to the original. Those had a few mmm of travel, but these micro switches have basicly none.:(

Hi guys, I really liked the work VO101MMaister. I also want to make yourself KG13A. I live in Russia. And manufacture control device for the simulator Il2 Shturmovik
Therefore, the desired size from the first page. AV8R, I beg you to give the dimensions A, B, C, D, F, H, G, I, J, L, M, O, N, R, S, P.
I do not speak English. Translate the text in the translator http://translate.google.ru/

KG13A plan to put here for such a mechanism http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=577

Hi Baur,

you show some great skills on that russian forum. Wish I could speak russian.
Could you briefly explain the advantages of your mechanism? It is very interesting.

I will be very hard to do this without the knowledge of the English language. Unfortunately, I have not found such a number of different control devices, what we do in Russia. On your forums, just like a nice appearance. In Russia, the first simulation of flight control.
But I'll try to explain:
I understand that the question applies here to this option mechanics - http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=577&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

If this interests you, then give the photos. The basic idea is that the mechanism itself becomes the center. It can be done without a sense of center. And with a sense of passage of the center, changing the plates zagruzhateley. Therefore, feeling dependent on the geometry of their edges.

Even replacing the springs, you can pick up the force on the control stick:)

Hi Baur,

I think I understand.

Because the two levers put equal pressure on the bearing attached to the stick you can release it in any position and it will stay there.

Am I correct ?

Very clever design and superb engineering.

Well done,

Andy

Yeah, right! But it's not all! Having the same mechanic, you can do pass through the center stick control sensitive or not. For this we need to replace the two levers and change sensations of motion control stick Availability Center - constant discussions with our pilots' flight simulators.

Andy, here is a pedal - http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=584 http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=575 They are simple, but I think it will be interesting to see. They are similar to the fighter Bf-109 and FW-190. And from the Mi-8 helicopter.

Getting Started. Still need the size that I requested from the beginning.

This do??
http://www.gavca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18007
Amazing model!! Well done..

Update!

Slow progress. Finally I could mount the buttons. I got a free set from Boandlgramer (thank you m8!!) and I also bought a set from the Tarmac guys. Well, the final button setup is a kind of mixture of these. I am very happy with the result. They look and feel great! I need to drill some holes and cut some threads for the button fixing screws. I will do it soon. I can`t wait the paint this beast:)

Some pictures:


DSC_0043_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0017_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0015_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0020_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0036_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

Hi everyone,

after almost a half year, some hundred hours of planning, experimenting, handcrafting and spending a few hundreds bucks my project has come to an end:)


DSC_1036 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

As a last step of machining I had milled the holes of the button holding screws.
Then I started to paint the stick. That was realy fun. After studying lot of reference pictures I used semigloss black for the stick and gloss black for the junction box.
I decided to make some weathering on it, so now it shows some patina. I sanded some paint down here and there, and made the screws corroded a bit with vinegar:).
I mounted the sign plate and finally soldered wires to the buttons. Finally I could install the trigger properly and trim the trigger spring.
Now everything is installed and fixed, all the functions work properly, ready for some future action:) All along the project I have tried to stick to the real Steuerknüppel as much as possible, and I am very happy with the result.

Thank you all for following and commenting this thread. Thank you for your help and ideas.
I am especially thankful for my friend VO101_Menyus, who made the casting for me,
to Balazs Schuller who helped me to find a solution for the "Fischhaut",
to Horst Rienecker, who supplied fantastic original parts and valuable information about the real thing,
to Hans "Boandlgramer" Schmid who generously offered and sent me super buttons
and the Tarmac Aces, who also supplied me a set of buttons and their piece of art works were really motivating as well.

The next task is to build a proper base for this grip. I already have some ideas and I have begun to make design sketches. I will open another thread for it soon.

Cheers
MM

And here are some more pictures of course:)

DSC_0098_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0095_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0091_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0087_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0086_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0085_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0084_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0079_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0077_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0076_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr


DSC_0065_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr

That's something to be proud of. Brilliant work!!

No fair showing a real piece, claiming it to be a replica.






Quality job! You might expect calls from all around the world now.

Thanks chaps

Yeah I think I will just quit my job and start a small KG13 producing workshop, right on Monday:D

What JAMF said.
Fantastic work, csaba.

But if you really want another job, then you are MY man .

Lol, thank you Hans:D

Well to work on those fantastic cockpits could be a real dream job:)

Where do I buy one MM?

and did you ever mount it for a PC?

This grip was made in my freetime for my own pleasure. I do not make any for sale. It is just too muach work, and would cost way too much.

It is ready to be connected and used on a PC joystick. All the buttons and wirings are there. I am working on a gimbal righ now, and I plan to put the grip on the top of it during this spring.

I will wait! It's very interesting to watch. Maybe pictures of my work will help - http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=577&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=240

Hi Baur,

I am a big fan of your work and I keep an eye on it
Wish we could communicate without google translate.

Yes, very sorry! For me, it is impossible to

I continue to work on KG13 -



This is a 3D printing. They need to make parts from plastic. If this works out well - do the rest.

Fascinating work and progress on these grips. The prospect of 3d printing for parts opens a whole world of possibilities for pit-builders.
Regards, Derek

That's right. Just a lot of money you need.

3D printing is a lot cheaper than having castings made and then machining them to tolerance.

g.

One form of silicone allows for 20 items. You can make 20 pieces KG13B !

Where I work I have seen metallic components made from an additive layer manufacturing machine if that makes hopefully that makes its way to the public

The only problem with additive manufacturing is the surface finish that is produced, I think they currently have to improve it after manufacturing by using another laser!

That's selective laser sintering, and they can even make titanium pieces with that technique. Recently an old woman had a 3D printed titanium jawbone implanted to replace her own damaged one. Terminator springs to mind

Yeah I saw that the other day it was awesome.

The next time I'll use the more expensive and high-quality material for printing 3D.

Wait for the news;)