#3133178 - 11/08/10 07:28 PM
MMaister's KG13A project!
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VO101MMaister
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Hi Cockpit builders, I would like to introduce my new controller project. This is going to be an accurate replica of the KG13A Steuerknüppel. There are several replicas on the market today. What makes mine a bit special, that it is -just like to original- made of aluminium. I would like to pin down, that this won't be offered for purchase. This is a pure hobby and fun for me. I had been close to buy a copy from the Tarmac guys, when a friend of mine who works for a famous vintage aircraft restaurator workshop in Hungary offered me a rough casting of the famous KG13. I couldn't resist to buy it and I immediately started to make a plan with that. And right here we are now. I have the casting and a lot of ideas how to comply it. What i can see right now that i will need a lot of time and energy of handcrafting, engineering, some money and a lot of help from people who have information about the steuerknüppel, or have some good ideas about how to come over the coming technical problems. I know that on this forum there are plenty of both, and i would apreciate their help a lot. To have the close to accurate dimensions of the original column i bought a resin 1:1 replica of it. That is what i will use to copy the grip the trigger and the buttons. I will also use my engineering experience and 3D CAD system to solve some challange around the trigger mechanism. But the first step is to refine and polish the rough surface of the casting to achive a smooth metal base to work further with. Ok enough from the introduction, here are some pictures!:)The pictures were taken adfter 2,5hours of rough refining work: KG13A-5 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr KG13A-4 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr KG13A-3 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr KG13A-2 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr KG13A-1 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr
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#3133736 - 11/09/10 05:30 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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JFA2
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Wow! Have fun with your project!
JFA
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#3153138 - 12/08/10 06:12 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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VO101MMaister
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Update 3. Preliminary machining is done. Further tuning will come when i will have all the parts to mount onto the stick. I ordered some replica KG13 parts from germany. The trigger, junction box, button clip, and some other things are on the way from there. That is the most expensive part of the project:P The most challanging part will be to simulate the bakelit grip with diamond pattern. I consulted with some modellers and they suggested to use 2 component epoxy clay. I will use milliput and Pro-Create mixture. The pattern will be copied from a bicycle grip which has a very similar pattern. I worry a bit about this so if anyone has a better idea, just let me know:) The knobs and their sockets will be machined from ABS plastic. Will be fitted with Knitter momentary switches. And some pictures: DSC_0009_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0008_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0003_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0001_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr
Last edited by VO101MMaister; 12/08/10 06:13 PM.
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#3154012 - 12/09/10 08:49 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Tbag
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Amazing! Great stuff MMaister!
The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
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#3155120 - 12/11/10 07:29 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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AV8R
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Very nice work and project! Where did those parts come from, the Tarmac guys? If you need pictures of a real KG13 stick, I found these: I have two real KG13s in my collection, if you need measurements or other pics let me know. Good luck
AV8R
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#3155145 - 12/11/10 08:35 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: AV8R]
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VO101MMaister
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Hi AV8R, no, the parts came from Horst Reinecker from Germany. He is a maker of replica luftwaffe aircraft parts.It is his former webshop: http://www.aeroart.de/en/index.phpThank you for the pictures. But I think that I have already downloaded all the KG13 pics from the internet:) There is one part of the stick what is still quite mysterious for me. To keep the trigger in firing position there is a plunger here: Unfortunately I don't have information on the specs of this part. What is its shape, what are the dimensions of it? If you could take some macro pictures and make some measurments for me about this part that would be fantastic. cheers MMaister
Last edited by VO101MMaister; 12/11/10 08:35 PM.
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#3155456 - 12/12/10 03:27 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Sokol1
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MMaister This pointed part is one "pressure ball" (dont know correctly name), like: Thanks to Inigohe from Escuadron69 for this picture.When you flip trigger down, this ball lock in this recess point in "ready to fire" position. When you need need put trigger in safety position, just push the trigger forward with your finger, the ball leave the recess point and the coil spring do the rest. Uploaded with ImageShack.usSokol1
Last edited by Sokol1; 12/12/10 03:37 PM.
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#3155658 - 12/12/10 09:59 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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VO101MMaister
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Hi Sokol, thanks for sharing the info. I am afraid it is only partly true. I inspected a bit my parts and consulted with Herr Reinecker, and I think I have the solution. It is true that a sping plunger hold the trigger in a firing position. First of all the recessed point you indicate is on the top when the trigger is locked in "armed" position (so it is useless), but there is no "recess" point needed on the trigger at all. It would be sily solution, becouse it would also lock the movement of the trigger toward the firing button. The engineers at Argus were very smart guys. They did it like this: There is a ball pressed by a spring toward the trigger as you showed as well. But the ball is blocked from falling out only by the trigger itself. They made a path for this ball around the shaft of the trigger. triggermech1 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr You can see, that the ball runs freely around the trigger shaft but there is one slope with an edge to block it. When you "arm" the trigger you force the ball over this slope. The edge will hold it until you force it over back again. But you can move the trigger freely towards the fire button. Clever, elegant and simple. German engineering:D
Last edited by VO101MMaister; 12/12/10 10:00 PM.
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#3174223 - 01/07/11 09:36 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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VO101MMaister
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Hi Pit builders, Happy New Year to All! After a longer brake I worked a lot today on the steuerknüppel. Now it realy starts to look and feel like a KG13:) Today I installed the trigger mechanism. It was the most scary part of the whole project, and i am very happy with the result. There was a lot of measuring, trying before every single hole drilling, but it was well spent time. The mech. works as it should. The torsion spring holds the trigger in safe position, and the ball with the push spring keeps it in firing position. With a little push it jumps back to safe. On the pictures the trigger shaft is not fully inserted and the spring is not trimmed. I will do it only at the final assembly. I also mounted the junction box and the cable holder. And the pics: DSC_0898 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0899 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0900 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0901 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0906 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0905 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0907 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr
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#3174351 - 01/08/11 12:39 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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SkoshiTiger
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This is really comming together. Thanks for the update!
Cheers!
Do you hear that, Fezzik? That is the sound of ultimate suffering. My heart made that sound when the six-fingered man killed my father.
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#3174512 - 01/08/11 10:37 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Valisk_61
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It's looking really, really nice. Great attention to detail. What are your plans for the stick base?
FS~Valisk 'Val' www.skiesoffire.org"I've never seen the Icarus story as a lesson about the limitations of humans. I see it as a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive." - Randall Munroe
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#3174683 - 01/08/11 06:16 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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VO101MMaister
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Hi Chaps, thanks for your kind words! Valisk_61 I am not sure yet. I planned to make it compatible with the Tarmac base, but since they still don't have ffb option and I don't like the no resistance idea, I will probably build one on my own. AndyB, The trigger all together was too tricky for me to build, I saved some hours and a few headaches and bought it ready from www.aeroart.deThe next project is also in sight. I have to build matching pedals from these
Last edited by VO101MMaister; 01/08/11 06:17 PM.
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#3175379 - 01/09/11 04:40 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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AV8R
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VO101MMaister
Been a while since I was at this thread, youve come a long long way. You have awesome skills.
It turns out that I bought a KG13 stick from Horst years ago. He claimed it was a real one, but Ive heard that hes into making quality repros since. Im not saying he lied, and Im not convinced what he sold me was real either. Regardless its nice and I also have a bonifide real one. I also have a single Me109 rudder pedal that was recovered from a BOB crash site. I will get some pictures posted soon of both the sticks and pedal soon for reference purposes.
Do you plan on using Bodinars USB controller board to make your stick/rudder functional? Also, do you plan on making a FW190 or Me109 throttle? If so, I think Id be very interested.
AV8R
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#3175450 - 01/09/11 06:15 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: AV8R]
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VO101MMaister
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Hi AV8R, I would love to see pictures about your collection! I saw some pictures of Horst's replicas, they are realy good. I had a good impression on him, and I know he has a very good reputation among vintage aircraft restaurators. I don't belive that he would risk it by selling fake parts as original. My two cent is that one must be very careful with these items. They cost a fortune now and I think there are lot of fakes on the market. Especialy modified Mig grips. So buying these things on the internet are out of question for me. I will definitely use Leo Bodnar's fantastic controllers. But at the moment I don't plan to build an additional throttle. In one hand I think it would be too much disadvantage in an online dogfight to lose the benefits of proper HOTAS throttle (I lose a lot of HOTAS function anyway with the KG13 grip compared to my old TM Cougar), on the other hand the tarmac guys already made a very nice one, I would buy one from them.
Last edited by VO101MMaister; 01/09/11 06:16 PM.
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#3175678 - 01/09/11 11:50 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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AV8R
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VO101, You said: Hi Chaps, The trigger all together was too tricky for me to build, I saved some hours and a few headaches and bought it ready from www.aeroart.deWhen I go to Horst's site, it says: Since 31.12.04 AeroArt & Paerts does not longer exsist. The web pages will remain in the net for informational reasons. We thank all our costemers.How did you buy a part if the business no longer exists, and what happened to Horst?
AV8R
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#3176459 - 01/11/11 12:18 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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AV8R
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Hi AV8R,
I would love to see pictures about your collection! Normally I dont show my collectables, but on occasion I show a few of them. Can you tell which stick came from Horst?
AV8R
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#3176889 - 01/11/11 04:26 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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AV8R
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MMaister
Thank you for your kind words. Again your fab skills are... fabulous. What do you do for a living, work in a fab shop?
As for the rudder pedal, it came from England and on the back side of the wooden mounting is some more german written in pen: (its hand written script, so forgive if I miss spell)
In alte freuudidall aus fliegere Hals und Beiulerich Horrido Noria aui 19.11.2002 Jrauk Hauke
Have any idea what this is saying, or who this is?
Id be interested in your electrical schematic that you make up for the KG13. As an electrical engineer myself, these things interest me.
For the stick with the elecrical box, on the inside is a connection diagram. It doesnt however, give the internal wiring diagram, just the post connections that a blackshirt would care about when hooking up a wire harness, me thinks.
AV8R
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#3177208 - 01/11/11 10:40 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: AV8R]
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VO101MMaister
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Hi AV8R, I am a design engineer by living. But also I like to build scale models. I guess it is a good combination for this project:) My german is less than acceptable, so i can't figure out everything. In alte freuudidall aus fliegere - Don't have a clue. Something about pilots and their gladness Hals und Beiulerich - That is easy: Hals und Beinbruch. Brake your neck and legs....kind of tradtional pilot's good luck wishes Horrido - Noria aui 19.11.2002 Jrauk Hauke The electrical part is just coming. I haven't given much thought of it yet. I will use ABS plastic to make the buttons and their casing. The switches and the circuit will nothing have to do with the original. I will use switches from Leo Bodnar. Today i finished the dimanond patterned plastic grip. Im the previous months I spent a lot of time with experimenting with materials and differnet technics. I am extremely thankful to some sculpture modeller guys from other forums who helped me a lot. Here is te result: DSC_0911 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0914 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0916 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0918 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr
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#3178212 - 01/13/11 02:15 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: JAMF]
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AV8R
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MM,
I say this with the experience of having two KG13s as you know...
Hier Horst has _nothing_ on you. Simply remarkable workmanship my good man. I seriously think you should write an article for SimHQ and show the process pics. Call it... the rebirth of an Eagle... or some such.
Your mad skills remind of another guy I once new from Norway who made his own F16 cockpit. I have his Cougar FCC and an ICP he had extra. Simply outstanding skills.
S!
AV8R
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#3178336 - 01/13/11 07:58 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Valisk_61
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I agree with AV8R. I'd love to know how you achieved that finish on the grip.
What a beautiful work of art.
FS~Valisk 'Val' www.skiesoffire.org"I've never seen the Icarus story as a lesson about the limitations of humans. I see it as a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive." - Randall Munroe
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#3178500 - 01/13/11 03:25 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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15Span_Costa
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Last edited by TinoCosta; 01/13/11 03:26 PM.
Vista, Suerte y al Toro!
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#3179628 - 01/14/11 07:11 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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AV8R
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MM, I think you have some good options to explore before looking to reinvent the wheel with a new switch... 1. Contact Horst for the switches he used to make his KG13s 2. Contact the guys selling the KG13 sim control stick Tarmac Aces site, then go to KG13 stick 3. See what this other guy used that just posted his stick 4. Pull apart an old TM F16 stick and use its guts If these dont pan out, ill try to help you find a micro momentary switch, like: 6mm x 6mm momentary switch or tactile switches Then you can hide the Leo PCB inside the KG13 electrical box.
AV8R
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#3179726 - 01/14/11 08:44 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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VO101MMaister
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Thanks Chaps for the help, now at least I have an idea what should I have I planned to buy some simple switches, and to ask the guys at my workplace to machine some sockets and caps from black plastic. But of course If they are already available, i am not dumb to work in vane. Hans, I sent a mail to you regarding the buttons. It is a pitty that you deleted the pictures of your steurknüppel. It looks amazing!!
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#3193254 - 01/30/11 04:16 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Baur
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Hi guys, I really liked the work VO101MMaister. I also want to make yourself KG13A. I live in Russia. And manufacture control device for the simulator Il2 Shturmovik Therefore, the desired size from the first page. AV8R, I beg you to give the dimensions A, B, C, D, F, H, G, I, J, L, M, O, N, R, S, P. I do not speak English. Translate the text in the translator http://translate.google.ru/
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#3195154 - 02/01/11 10:11 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Baur
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I will be very hard to do this without the knowledge of the English language. Unfortunately, I have not found such a number of different control devices, what we do in Russia. On your forums, just like a nice appearance. In Russia, the first simulation of flight control. But I'll try to explain: I understand that the question applies here to this option mechanics - http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=577&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75
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#3195264 - 02/01/11 01:44 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: AndyB]
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Baur
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I think I understand.
Because the two levers put equal pressure on the bearing attached to the stick you can release it in any position and it will stay there.
Am I correct ?
Yeah, right! But it's not all! Having the same mechanic, you can do pass through the center stick control sensitive or not. For this we need to replace the two levers and change sensations of motion control stick Availability Center - constant discussions with our pilots' flight simulators. Andy, here is a pedal - http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=584 http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=575 They are simple, but I think it will be interesting to see. They are similar to the fighter Bf-109 and FW-190. And from the Mi-8 helicopter.
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#3236644 - 03/17/11 03:35 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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VO101MMaister
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Hi everyone, after almost a half year, some hundred hours of planning, experimenting, handcrafting and spending a few hundreds bucks my project has come to an end:) DSC_1036 by csaba.moharos, on Flickr As a last step of machining I had milled the holes of the button holding screws. Then I started to paint the stick. That was realy fun. After studying lot of reference pictures I used semigloss black for the stick and gloss black for the junction box. I decided to make some weathering on it, so now it shows some patina. I sanded some paint down here and there, and made the screws corroded a bit with vinegar:). I mounted the sign plate and finally soldered wires to the buttons. Finally I could install the trigger properly and trim the trigger spring. Now everything is installed and fixed, all the functions work properly, ready for some future action:) All along the project I have tried to stick to the real Steuerknüppel as much as possible, and I am very happy with the result. Thank you all for following and commenting this thread. Thank you for your help and ideas. I am especially thankful for my friend VO101_Menyus, who made the casting for me, to Balazs Schuller who helped me to find a solution for the "Fischhaut", to Horst Rienecker, who supplied fantastic original parts and valuable information about the real thing, to Hans "Boandlgramer" Schmid who generously offered and sent me super buttons and the Tarmac Aces, who also supplied me a set of buttons and their piece of art works were really motivating as well. The next task is to build a proper base for this grip. I already have some ideas and I have begun to make design sketches. I will open another thread for it soon. Cheers MM And here are some more pictures of course:) DSC_0098_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0095_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0091_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0087_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0086_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0085_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0084_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0079_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0077_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0076_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr DSC_0065_DxO by csaba.moharos, on Flickr
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#3516450 - 02/11/12 03:52 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: Baur]
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VO101MMaister
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Hi Baur, I am a big fan of your work and I keep an eye on it Wish we could communicate without google translate.
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#3744633 - 03/03/13 08:28 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Sokol1
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Baur, Why not start a new tread with your "Project one" joystick mechanics. Sokol1
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#3744822 - 03/04/13 06:18 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: Sokol1]
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453Raafspitty
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Baur, Why not start a new tread with your "Project one" joystick mechanics. Sokol1 Plus 2..
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#3744840 - 03/04/13 09:37 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: Sokol1]
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Baur
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Hi Sokol1! I'm tormented conscience. I have not given You the drawings of the pedals Sorry again! Why not start a new tread with your "Project one" joystick mechanics. I have a lot of devices! With what to begin? What will be interesting to know on this forum? I need help. I'm bad I can tell with the help of Google translator. I ask You to be my representative! I will write. You will explain to the guys difficult places. Agreed? What is the name of a new topic to make?
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#3772746 - 04/24/13 09:35 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Steven190
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I would be interested in one
Let us know
Great job Baur
AMD Phonom 2 X4 965, Asus M4N96 EVO mobo, Windows 7 64 bit OS 8g Corsair MSX2 DHX c7 RaptorX 300 gig w/500 gig backup drive 2) GTX 480 Hydro copper,Koolance water system Dell 2405 FP monitor Creative X-Fi Exteme Track4Pro/ Vector 6DOF Bu0836 controller/ Simped pedals
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#3773726 - 04/26/13 06:35 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 149
Baur
Member
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Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 149
Russia, Sochi
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All the tricks are useless, if we want to get quality... Probably I do not understand?
Last edited by Baur; 04/26/13 06:37 PM.
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#3774410 - 04/28/13 07:45 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 149
Baur
Member
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Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 149
Russia, Sochi
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I've printed things with a 90 micron layer height on my Rostock MAX with no problems. By adding a tiny amount of support structure where needed, I could probably print all the grip parts without a problem. This is good. But I did at affordable me technologies. In General it is very expensive in Russia. For me it cost 500 Euro The amount of detail I did to it was then conveniently their casting of plastic. Could also be made fully.
Last edited by Baur; 04/28/13 07:47 AM.
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#3995061 - 08/13/14 09:19 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3
JagerStick
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3
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I see this is an old topic and none of the links are panning out for me. I am in the process of building my own KG-13 as well. I don't have an original, but I did manage to get access to one at a museum. Wondering how one goes about getting the electronics for it? I was going to just take the guts out of my old Logitech stick until I can figure it out myself (I am not an engineer). Any tips?
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#3995127 - 08/13/14 11:49 PM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,955
Sokol1
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,955
Internet
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The most easy way to add electronics, the USB controller card that translate buttons press, axis pot/sensors movements to computer is buy one dedicated card, like these (probable the most used by DIY "josyticks): http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?...45cf0168228a59fYou can even assembly your own USB controller boards and write then with a firmware, like MMjoy. Or buy a development board, like ATMEL and wire then with Hempstead firmware... Hack a old joystick is doable, but their electronics are not the best possible, and is difficult trace PCB connections and wire new buttons... Sokol1
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#4371349 - 07/28/17 01:23 AM
Re: MMaister's KG13A project!
[Re: VO101MMaister]
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1
FW190A8
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1
Beaufort SC USA
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Do you still make these stick grips I have replica Fw190A8 and would like to put it in my plane...
UBBCode
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