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#3260798 - 04/05/11 06:50 PM Re: A word about the missions and campaign? [Re: Ripcord]  
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Scott Elson Offline
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Particularly if they're going to be releasing this in modules then I think that trying to do a Dynamic Campaign (DC) at the beginning is asking for a lot of headaches and potentially could kill the project. Here's what I had to say about DCs in regards to DCS:A-10C:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3237970/Re_Interview_with_F4s_campaign.html#Post3237970

Now they had some external influences that might be impacting them that these guys don't but I think most of it is still valid.

I understand why you want a dynamic campaign but have you really thought about what it takes to do one and the financial and time constraints these guys could be under? They've already said, "the first two installments are meant to be getting a product out there and getting some cash flow so we can at least have a shot at the dynamic campaign". It sounds like if they feel if they went for the DC to start with they wouldn't be around long enough to get the game out. Even if they did my guess would be that it would be rushed which isn't going to give a first impression and could kill things right there. Of course if you don't want to support these guys if they don't have a dynamic campaign in their initial release that it is your choice. Too bad if the people who do buy it really enjoy it but there aren't enough sales to justify them going forward.

Elf

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#3261756 - 04/06/11 03:04 PM Re: A word about the missions and campaign? [Re: Scott Elson]  
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Johan217 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Elson
Of course if you don't want to support these guys if they don't have a dynamic campaign in their initial release that it is your choice.

Hey I never said that cheers I understand that you cannot have a good campaign when a considerable part of the game is not there. I am just concerned that it will be very hard to keep people interested for long enough. I hope I am wrong... after all RoF is doing pretty well nowadays.

Just as RSColonel_131st and others pointed out above, a campaign of Falcon 4.0/EECH/Mig Alley proportions is probably putting the bar too high. I think many people would be perfectly satisfied with a campaign system that is comparable to the TW sims or Lowengrin's DCG for IL-2. Of course I am no programmer, but I guess a system like this should be much less hard/time consuming to develop.


Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it, Sir?
#3261778 - 04/06/11 03:29 PM Re: A word about the missions and campaign? [Re: Johan217]  
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Scott Elson Offline
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Scott Elson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johan217

Hey I never said that


My apologies for misunderstanding but this seemed to indicate otherwise.

Originally Posted By: Johan217

That said, I'm afraid I belong to the "no dynamic campaign, no interest" group.


Elf

#3262092 - 04/06/11 08:28 PM Re: A word about the missions and campaign? [Re: Ripcord]  
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Johan217 Offline
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I'll rephrase then: "no dynamic campaign, no lasting interest". I am certainly looking forward to Jet Thunder and I'll gladly buy it at first release. But without a campaign mode that appeals to me, I am afraid I will lose interest quickly and I am afraid that others will too.

I meant that I would much rather see a "ThirdWire-like" campaign in the forseeable future than the promise of a "Falcon-like" campaign two years down the road. I believe such a campaign system would be sufficient to please most of the "I want a dynamic campaign mob", of which I count myself a member cool

Last edited by Johan217; 04/06/11 08:28 PM.

Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it, Sir?
#3262875 - 04/07/11 02:59 PM Re: A word about the missions and campaign? [Re: Ripcord]  
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Scott Elson Offline
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Scott Elson  Offline
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OK, I can appreciate that. Unfortunately over the years I've seen a number of people who not only wouldn't buy a game if it didn't have some particular feature, no matter how good the game might be, but sometimes would actively go out of their way to try and convince others not to buy it either (definitely not implying that you were trying to do that). What you just wrote does a good job explaining your concerns but lets others that might be considering the game and the developers know that you're still interested in it.

Elf

#3263091 - 04/07/11 06:20 PM Re: A word about the missions and campaign? [Re: Dante-JT]  
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Originally Posted By: Dante-JT

Regarding the artistic license regarding a wider range of missions flown, we're pondering about the lack of air-to-air in RAF Harrier missions.
I'm all for artistic license and all sorts of what-ifs. I wouldn't mind seeing these incorporated into the historical missions themselves, for example have a certain % chance of enemies scrambling. Or even non-essential events, e.g. one time you'll see a Chinook take off from your base, and next time you play the mission it's a Sea King. Sounds trivial, I know, but sometimes such details can make a sim come alive.


Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it, Sir?
#3266634 - 04/11/11 09:41 AM Re: A word about the missions and campaign? [Re: Ripcord]  
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Johan217 Offline
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I just had a look at the IL2COD campaign and I believe this can serve as an important lesson - how not to do it. I used to think Flanker 2's campaigns were lacklustre, but this one really blows everything.

I figured I would throw my 2 cents in here because I would hate to see Jet Thunder getting sabred down for making the same mistakes.

- Background story: Just stick to the historical background and keep it to a minimum. Do not throw in any romanticising elements ("my wingman was shot down" etc) unless they are actually reflected in the game itself.
- Mission (de)briefings: A crucial part of any sim. Do not clutter the mission briefing with descriptive text. State clearly the target, waypoint info, etc. It's midnboggling how often this is overlooked.
- Objectives/Difficulty: This is debatable. Personally I hate it when I cannot advance to the next mission because I failed to destroy one particular vehicle in a convoy (this happened in Flanker2 for example). Also, sometimes a mission may be simply beyond my capabilities. A way to avoid this is to make the skill level of the enemies that appear in the misson scaleable with the selected difficulty level.
- "RPG elements": not essential, but I guess most people like to be able to at least name their pilot, and see the names of their AI squadron mates.
- Air starts: I've never heard of anyone who likes them biggrin

Playing IL2COD made me realise that sometimes you're better off with no campaign at all than with a badly designed campaign. I don't know if Jet Thunder will include a mission builder or Quick Mission generator? If it does, then a set of single missions (historical or otherwise) may be sufficient to keep people busy for long enough while the next installments are being developed... hopefully with a dynamic campaign somewhere along the route wink


Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it, Sir?
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