Forums » Air Combat & Civil Aviation » Rise of Flight - The First Great Air War » Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire


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#3091452 - 09/10/10 08:35 PM Re: Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire [Re: Copterdrvr]
BlueRaven Offline
Flight Instructor
Member

Registered: 07/11/09
Posts: 921
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: Dart
"You don't eat before you come flying, do you?" my instructor asked afterward.
"Oh, hail no," I replied, "Convective is French for upchuck, and that's the only kind of weather we get."
"I'm gonna have to write that one down."


yep


Never stuff yourself with Mexican food then go do spins? Doesn't bother me.



Originally Posted By: Bandy
Originally Posted By: BlueRaven

I fired the entire ammo load in one burst the other day. It's quite hilarious at the end. It looks more like you are throwing the bullets out there and they are going all over the place.


Interesting experiment and result, BUT if it didn't happen to you, that gun should have jammed big time with all that heat.
Apparently the brass in the cartridges used to tear often and cause unclearable stoppages. There were all sorts of jams, due to lubrication, moisture freezing in the action, slightly bent/dinged cartridges, belt links, etc. The best pilots checked every round and loaded the belts themselves.


Oh, it jammed... a lot... I just kept recocking it. The hotter it got the more it jammed. I'm pretty sure one gun was firing faster than the other too by the end. One gun ran out of ammo way sooner than the other.

Originally Posted By: Benny Moore
Originally Posted By: Dart
Come to Alabama and fly in a 700 pound Light Sport Aircraft. "Pushing you around" feels a helluvalot like shaking to me. One day we just gave up on trying to trim for level flight and gave ourselves a 200 foot buffer. And yes, it was beautiful VFR at 15 SM visibility, with winds at 4 knots variable. In fact, gusting and turbulence in RoF is precisely what I've experienced in real life. That might be because I'm flying in very light aircraft.


Weird. The Cessna 152s I flew were only about twice that weight, and I never experienced the "shaken by a paint mixer" sensation that simulators have. In my case, the wind was strong enough to constantly be banking the aircraft 45 degrees, but it was still a pushing and not a shaking. It felt very much like standing in between two strong men who alternately shove you from one side to the other, but not like they were grabbing you and shaking you.


There's been many days that I've flown my C150 that I describe the turbulence as being in a giant paint shaker... My exact words.
_________________________
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#3091584 - 09/11/10 06:25 AM Re: Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire [Re: BullpupBarrie]
Benny Moore
Unregistered


I just discovered something. The inaccuracy caused by excessive shooting seems to be permanent (which sounds reasonable to me). After shooting for an extended period of time, I stopped shooting for perhaps ten minutes and then started shooting again. This time my bullets went everywhere. I was even firing on a stationary target in zoomed mode. I restarted the mission and started shooting in zoomed mode to compare, and my bullets were going more or less straight.

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#3091662 - 09/11/10 09:00 AM Re: Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire [Re: Copterdrvr]
Mogster Offline
Hotshot

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 6371
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: Copterdrvr
Originally Posted By: Bandy
Originally Posted By: BlueRaven

I fired the entire ammo load in one burst the other day. It's quite hilarious at the end. It looks more like you are throwing the bullets out there and they are going all over the place.


Interesting experiment and result, BUT if it didn't happen to you, that gun should have jammed big time with all that heat.
Apparently the brass in the cartridges used to tear often and cause unclearable stoppages. There were all sorts of jams, due to lubrication, moisture freezing in the action, slightly bent/dinged cartridges, belt links, etc. The best pilots checked every round and loaded the belts themselves.


I'm pretty sure that one of the problems with "hard" jams was the fact that when the chamber area got really hot and the case would be hanging up in the chamber, the extractor on the bolt would pull through the rim of the case, leaving it hopelessly stuck in the chamber until removed by something inserted from the muzzle end to push the cartridge out.

I'm also pretty confident that the jams that are experienced after high G maneuvers are due to the fact that the bullets are in a cloth "belt" that doesn't hold the cartridges very firmly at all and they shift around in the belt causing problems. Modern machinegun "belts" are actually metal links that hold the cartridge VERY firmly and even they caused problems occasionally.


ROF only models the sort of jam that's caused by the bullet not firing, the sort of stoppage that's cleared by cranking the action to the next round. Permanent jams cause by bits of metal and frayed hemp ammo belts aren't modelled. I think permanent stoppages would be too frustrating for most players.

I'm not sure if the heat/accuracy effects are permanent for that mission. It would be nice to have some sort of indicator on the simple gaugue set up, just so you could get a feel for what the dynamic is.
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#3091698 - 09/11/10 09:51 AM Re: Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire [Re: BullpupBarrie]
Benny Moore
Unregistered


Just had one of my machine guns permanently jam today. Not sure if it was caused by a bullet or shrapnel (I had been hit by a bullet or two), or if it was a regular jam.

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#3095214 - 09/16/10 02:28 PM Re: Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire [Re: BullpupBarrie]
JFM Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/06
Posts: 497
Loc: Naples, FL
Hi, Benny,

Sorry for my delayed response.

No, I'm not being "snarky" with you. If I thought you were full of #%&*$# I would use your name and come right out and say so. Although I will say I chuckled at the irony of your statement "real pilots can have their heads up their asses, too. (I do have a few hours myself.)"

Yes, I have read your posts. In fairness I've just gone back and re-read them. Several times you proclaimed your inarticulation ("argh, I can't explain what I'm trying to say"), an opinion with which I agree.

Yes, I fly around with the default zoom level. You go on and on about "real" F.o.V. but you push an "E" button to start an engine? There are a zillion things in RoF that aren't depicted accurately; why are you so worried about F.o.V. and zooming? Due to your confessed inarticulation I am still unsure. Regardless, it appears you are overthinking and making things far more difficult than they need to be. Just adapt and overcome:

1. Do some homework and study airplane silhouettes; you'll learn to recognize types from afar.

2. Look out of the cockpit and recognize an enemy.

3. Maneuver yourself into a position of advantage, get close, open fire.

It's easy. What else is there?







As far as never being shaken in a Cessna 152, you’ve just never encountered real turbulence. I have hundreds of hours in those things and I’ve had the hell kicked out of me countless times. They don't call them "Butt-beaters" for nothing!
_________________________
JFM
Jim Miller

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#3095228 - 09/16/10 02:41 PM Re: Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire [Re: JFM]
Josh Echo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 1216
Originally Posted By: JFM
why are you so worried about F.o.V. and zooming?


Because I can't see anything in the sim nearly as well as I can see things I.R.L. If I zoom out all the way, then I can see a little bit more of my R.L. peripheral vision (though still just a fraction), but then everything gets really tiny, much smaller than they would look I.R.L. It's very frustrating. Looking through the camera in the sim is rather like looking through a cardboard tube I.R.L.

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#3095548 - 09/17/10 04:43 AM Re: Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire [Re: Josh Echo]
Sturm_Williger Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 693
Loc: Virtual Paradise
Originally Posted By: Josh Echo
Originally Posted By: JFM
why are you so worried about F.o.V. and zooming?


Because I can't see anything in the sim nearly as well as I can see things I.R.L. If I zoom out all the way, then I can see a little bit more of my R.L. peripheral vision (though still just a fraction), but then everything gets really tiny, much smaller than they would look I.R.L. It's very frustrating. Looking through the camera in the sim is rather like looking through a cardboard tube I.R.L.


Plane visibility distances in RoF notwithstanding, this is a feature of all flight sims to some extent or other. As soon as your vision is reduced to a monitor's fov, this will occur.
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#3095767 - 09/17/10 09:48 AM Re: Solution to Long Range Shooting Which Doesn't Involve Unrealistically Innaccurate MG Fire [Re: BullpupBarrie]
Josh Echo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 1216
Yes, I know. I said that.

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