Actually, my concern isn't that the SPAD sucks more than a P-51 or an F-15; my concern is that the SPAD sucks more than a Fokker D.VII. That thing can do damn near anything the SPAD can do, and a lot more as well. Oh, yes, the SPAD XIII has a tiny bit more maximum speed on the deck and a bit better dive, but those advantages are virtually negated if the enemy has even a small energy advantage on you. And when you can't get away for that reason, you're screwed because the D.VII does everything else so much better. sigh

Wikipedia states that the Swiss actually bought new D.VII airframes in 1929 - although there's no sauce for that, it seems possible.

The Dutch Navy were still using the D.VII in 1935. (Source). Granted it was almost certainly as a trainer rather than as a front-line fighter, but still - it was useful over fifteen years post development. Considering how quickly the likes of Fokker's E.III, Dr.1 etc were replaced with new models, that really does say something about the aircraft.

Either way - there's a reason that it was in use with several nations for many years after the end of WW1, and it wasn't just that the Armistice meant the Entente got their hands on every German aircraft going... it was a good plane! It had a softer stall/spin than the Camel and SPAD, was fast, could dive without shedding bits and could sustain a high angle of attack. It was noted for being good to pilots, the German equivalent of the SE5a as an Acemaker.

So yeah, expect one to make life very hard for you as a SPAD pilot if you let it get the advantage on you. THAT'S why everyone here has been telling you that the sane way to use a SPAD is to make fast, slashing attacks from a reasonable energy advantage and if the fight goes against you, extend and climb. It's not about being wimps or anything like that, it's simply how the SPAD fights most effectively. If a D.VII is descending on you from height, you're already in a bad position and staying to fight will only make that position worse. You're best off extending and recovering the situation.

We may not all have had thousands of stick hours in IL-2 - I think I've played it for less than ten in total - but that doesn't make us fools or cowards. I've almost certainly got far less hours in RoF than you have in IL2, but believe me when I say I saw that post ^^^ coming.

I know, but I often can't do that. Yes, I've got better maximum speed under ideal conditions, but if he's diving on me, I can't get away. If I dive shallowly, he catches me. If I dive steeply, he dives shallowly and catches me later when I run out of altitude and pull out. If I try to turn with him for a circle or two to make him burn his energy, he turns inside of me and ends up a hundred feet off my tail when I level off and attempt to extend. I feel rather helpless against the D.VII under almost all conditions. I can say the same of the S.E.5a, on servers which pit all aircraft against all aircraft.

I'm amazed that human players are bothering to chase you down via a slow dive after you drop like a stone, tbh. Usually they give up and go home as soon as they see you fall out of gunshot range.

If that's happening though I suggest you run towards friendly cover, flaring frequently to attract help, and hope that someone either helps you out or you find a friendly Archie emplacement to lend a hand.

Again - this is why you were given the advice to use the SPAD in a contemporary fashion; extend, climb and circle as soon as you get visual on an EA that's got the advantage over you. It's not about cowardice, it's about being in a position from which you can win (or at least survive) the fight.

I was talking about a situation where I run away as soon as I see the enemy with an altitude advantage. If he's got enough altitude on me, it doesn't matter what I do. He'll catch me. In my P-38, I could then turn a few circles with the enemy to bleed off his energy, then once we were on roughly equal footing in terms of energy states (although obviously he'd have a superior angle since he used his energy to turn inside of my turn), I'd shallow-dive away. But that doesn't work here because the aircraft are different and because I'm not yet accustomed to them. I don't think it'll work even after I figure out the SPAD XIII inside and out, because of the differences in relative turn times/circles and energy capabilities.

If you're in a Spad and he is in a DVII, the height advantage can be made irrelevant. Again, hard to get across in words.. but if you see him diving on you begin a shallow dive yourself, and turn towards his direction if you are not facing him. As you approach and he continues his dive, watch what he does.. if he continues his heading towards you for a shot, just maneuver slightly (maintaining slight dive) to throw him off then as he passes over the top zoom climb and turn. 9/10 times you will end up above him now. This occurs because he wastes energy steepening his dive to get a shot then pulls back hard to overcompensate once his shot has missed and his aircraft has flown waaay underneath you..
However, if he instead decides to not press the attack and pulls up again, then you know he is a decent pilot and you can comfortably split-s away without him following you. There are too many options to list if he somehow decides to follow so I'm not listing them (another vid I should prob make) I use this tactic against any aircraft barring a Dr.1, but not all the time though..

As for the Spad sucking more than a Fokker D.VII, thats just nonsense I'm afraid. Born out of frustrations I'm sure, but still silly to assert.

I know this maneuver well. It hasn't worked for me so far in the SPAD XIII. The D.VII turns so quickly that, as the other new fellow noted in the thread about flying the S.E.5a, the two aircraft can pass each other on close parallel paths, and the D.VII can execute an energy-burning flat turn and still end up directly behind the other ship at close range. It's ghastly; I've never seen anything like it in any Second World War or modern air combat sim, because the discrepancy between the maneuverability and the speed of the aircraft is much greater than it is in the Great War. And this also means that, when I attempt the maneuver you described, he can pull a tight modern-Immelmann right after passing me and end up right behind me.



I'd appreciate that. I must be doing something wrong, or he wouldn't be able to pull that crazy turn and end up right behind me. I know it sounds like I'm doing the noob move of mistaking speed for safety and ignoring the angles; you know, where the noob falls victim to a lead turn because he thinks he's safe since he's going faster than the other guy. But I haven't fallen victim to that since I was just learning energy fighting, years ago! I could swear this isn't what I'm doing here. [slight sob]



[perplexed look] I really don't see how you can say this. The D.VII turns much better, rolls much better, loops much better, is faster at altitude, is very nearly as fast at sea level, climbs about the same, accelerates about the same, and dives almost as well. It's much better at most things, roughly equal in most other areas, and is only clearly worse at steep dives and maximum speed at sea level. I agree that maximum speed at sea level is more important in a fighter than turn and roll rate. But with all of those other handicaps as well, how can you say that it's "silly" to claim that the SPAD's worse? The only thing the SPAD XIII is clearly superior at is getting away from the fight, and even that only when the energy state is superior or roughly equal.

Well, I may be beginning to get the hang of energy fighting in the SPAD XIII. It's kind of like flying a P-38 with one engine against a Hawker Hurricane. Anyway, I've made a four-minute track for someone to criticize, if anyone can suggest a good means of uploading. It's about 23 meg.

You have to specify which DVII.

The DVIIF is a nasty machine.

And let's all remember that the DVII was the only war machine specifically enumerated by type and model in the Versailles Treaty to be banned.

...And most of them were quickly ferried away out of the country for evaluation by the major powers and for use in the fledgling airforces of the more minor powers. Reparation aircraft formed the backbone of a many a European inter-war airforce.

It's the D.VIIF which terrorizes me. The other one I think I can handle, as long as I don't get careless. But it's the D.VIIF which I encounter online the great majority of the time. Just about everyone flies it exclusively, it seems.

Here's a four-minute track of me attempting to out-climb a few A.I. piloted Fokker D.VIIs. I don't know whether or not they're the F model; they don't seem to be very fast, but then the A.I. is retarded so they might just be flying around at reduced power or something. File size is about four megabyes. http://www.mediafire.com/?vbunlp5ijf2iijj Thoughts?

The setup looked good. On your initial attack, I think you pressed too long trying to follow the enemy and should have just pulled out to reestablish altitude for a 2nd attack. You were having to bank and turn, which will burn E if pressed too long. And especially as he had a wingman with him, I wouldn't chase in a turn as that will soon set you up for his wingy to shoot. Also, you shouldn't dive below the enemy. Dive down, roll to get aligned and use elevator to pull up and put your nose on him to shoot. But pull out and zoom back up before getting below him. If you can't get guns on him, you at least made him turn hard to avoid your attack, causing him to bleed E. You shouldn't dive below either aircraft, actually. I would attack the higher one and stay above him.

Also, when I zoom climb out of an attack, I try to do a spiral or turning zoom climb to keep as much directly above the other guy as possible. The Central planes can hang on their props, so making them try that at near vertical is a quick way to get them to stall and vulnerable for another attack.

Sorry but I can't read this whole thread. All I can say is that the SPAD is THE most survivable plane in the game. It's fast. It's stable. Good players become great in the SPAD. Go online and look for a player named Scarpo if you want to see how a SPAD must be flown.

...Think Fw-190

The Spad's my favorite ride..but what would I know.

Thanks for evaluating. Yeah, I thought I saw an opportunity to get an extra shot and took it. Bit of a deviation from the "boom and zoom." I dunno whether or not I could have made it if I were better accustomed to the SPAD.



Hmm, interesting. This goes against what I learned over years with Second World War sims, but you're probably right. This is much different from that (hence my difficulties).



In the Second World War air sims, I gradually discovered over the years that a sharp pullup and steep (about fifty to ninety degrees) zoom climb wasted far more energy than did a gradual pullout and shallow (maybe fifteen or twenty degrees) zoom climb. However, it's looking to me as though this is not true of Great War scouts. Maybe the difference is in the immensely different drag-power-lift-mass relationships? Anyway, it sounds like you're confirming this suspicion of mine. Would you mind expounding yet further, if you have additional information about zoom climb steepness?

Well, you are right that you don't want to go too steep. But that's why a turning climb helps. If you zoom away in a straight line at best sustained climb angle (45-50 degrees?), you will probably have to dodge some return fire. Turning to stay closer, but above the enemy will help reduce that. I won't claim to be an expert here, but I initially zoom at a pretty steep angle, until my speed drops to best climb speed, then try to maintain that sustained climb rate while setting up the next pass.

This is why I dive past them, actually; I sacrifice my energy to minimize my chances of being hit as I extend. By the way, best sustained climb angle for any Great War airplane can't possibly be more than thirty degrees. I haven't used an instrument to measure it, but forty-five degrees is much higher than anything any Great War ship can sustain. In fact, it's even too high for Second World War fighters. I estimate the SPAD XIII's best climb angle to be between fifteen and twenty degrees under any conditions (except for at significantly reduced power, in which case the angle would be lower).



Hmm. You don't find that turning in the SPAD puts your climb at a disadvantage? Since the SPAD performs flat turns, combat turns, modern-Immelmanns, and split-Ss less well than its opponents, I would assume that spiral climbs are not an exception. Spiral climbs were one of my favored maneuvers in my P-38, but then the P-38 did better in turns relative to its opponents than the SPAD XIII does relative to its opponents. In the SPAD, I would assume that a spiral climb would let the other craft out-spiral-climb you. Even if you had an energy advantage upon starting the maneuver, wouldn't the spiral climb allow him to close the gap better than if you just extended straight or even climbed at best angle? (Of course, the latter would also make you a more or less stationary target from his perspective.)

The 45-50 degree comment was a typo. I meant to put that next to "but I initially zoom at a pretty steep angle." Sorry for the confusion.

I find that I can maintain best sustained climb speed and still turn. I can stay above everything but a DR.1 doing that in a SPAD. Its not a hard turn, just a gentle bank and application of elevator to keep the nose up and turn. I keep speed between 110-120 mph.

Try it out and see how it works. The main goal is to reduce their opportunity to shoot back. I am not saying they won't get a chance to try, but the shot is much harder for them as we are both typically turning and they are at or near stall when trying. Your choice to dive away is a good one if you want to take one pass and eliminate return fire. But you will have to extend a good distance until your enemy gives up the chase. Since you are in a SPAD, they should not be able to catch you.

Would you (or anyone else) record and post a track showing the correct way to deal with an enemy Fokker D.VII in a situation where the initial energy states are equal (or his is superior to yours)? I just finished fighting five of them for over an hour. Visibly damaged two or three of them but not seriously. Got hit a few times myself trying to extend without a steep dive, including one bullet in the engine, which eventually conked out as a result.

A few problems I'm consistently having:

1) I can get above them, but I can't get high enough above them. I suppose I could do it if I kept climbing, but once they fall below my horizontal stabilizer I can't see them anymore. If I bank slightly to keep them in view, I lose lift and thus can't out-climb them anymore. If I keep my wings level most of the time and only bank occasionally to look at them, well, I still lose lift when I do that. And it seems like whenever I bank steeply enough to see them, I lose more altitude than I gained. This may be a perception thing that I'll get over. Thoughts?

2) I can't see the horizon well enough to keep my wings perfectly level while climbing at my best sustained climb speed. Naturally, wings perfectly level and ball perfectly centered are vital for attaining maximum climb rate. But I can't see the horizon well enough regardless of my zoom mode. The only way I can tell that I'm in a slight bank is when my aircraft begins to turn—and by then, I'm already in a shallow bank and have lost a significant amount of lift (and thus not-gained as much energy as I might have). This isn't from lack of practice; I've had years of practice doing this in other sims. This is because of the SPAD XIII's terrible forward visibility. I simply can't see enough of the horizon. The fact that the default head position is off-center makes this even harder; I suppose I should be wrestling with the snap views, but it's so difficult. I already spend more time and effort "piloting my virtual pilot's head" than I do flying the plane.

3) When I do get above them, since I'm not as far above them as I'd like to be, I don't have enough room to actually roll over and dive on them. At best I can pitch up, perform a hammerhead-like maneuver, and then dive on them. However, at higher altitudes, I don't have enough airspeed to do this. So most of the time, I have to try to out-turn them on a higher plane, burning some of my extra altitude to get a tighter turn than they can sustain. Usually, it works (against the A.I.) and I end up above them and behind them, but just barely—and at this point I'm in a steep diving bank, and they're doing the same thing (and quickly beginning to gain ground in the turn, as their airspeed picks up). It's very difficult in this mutual spiral dive to get a shot in, but if I do things correctly I can get a very brief snapshot—no more than one second long. I often fudge it (harmlessly hitting their wing or even failing to even get a firing solution).

4) Extending. This is the big one, actually. I can only safely extend after my attack if I burn away a ton of energy by diving steeply. If I try to zoom climb, or extend straight out, or even dive shallowly, they usually get a few bullets into my ship. Even when they don't, they do always get the opportunity (a decent human player would nail me). Only by diving very steeply (at least forty-five degrees, I'm sure) can I get away; I lose a ton of energy doing this and can't easily get it back. I encounter this difficulty extending whether I've dived on them after a hammerhead or out-turned them on a higher plane and then dived down. Either way, they flick back toward me so quickly that by the time their guns are pointed at me, I'm only a few dozen yards away (unless I dived steeply).

If someone would care to review it, I will record another pair of tracks which are more to the point than my four-minute one. I'll begin recording after I've just out-climbed the enemy, so they'll start out behind and below me. I'll then demonstrate my two methods of attack: the hammerhead and dive, and the out-turning on a higher plane then dive. Then you can tell me what I did wrong, and hopefully post a track of your own explaining.