I had seen Requiem10NS's video of the Cuban Eight performed in a SE5a. I cannot perform this in the SE5a and while I accept I am not a great pilot I can gently pull back on a joystick in a straight line.

I have a Saitek x52 Pro and rudders, brand new they are, still shiny. I set up the SE5a to fly level at 80% throttle by adjusting the curves, so far all good.

But when I try and to a Cuban Eight it does not even get onto its back before falling out of the sky.

If I use the basic 'input' setup with no adjustments I get slightly better results but cannot do a Cuban Eight.

Any advice on how to trouble shoot this to determine how much is myself and how much might be my tools?

Lord knows I'm no aerobatic expert, but it sounds like you're running out of energy early on. Suggest a higher entry speed to begin, even once you're over the top you'll still have to have or regain some energy/airspeed to have control authority to complete the roll to level.

Perhaps a shallow dive to gain some speed prior to pulling the first half loop might do it?

Requiem's skilled, but he ain't God, or as Mr. Scott was wont to say 'Ye cannae change the laws of physics!' and he doesn't have a magic SE-5, so it's clearly do-able.

I haven't tried that maneuver myself in the SE, now you've got me curious.

[MF] Gunloon

I had to try it...worked out fine.

At 2000 feet, level at about 129-130mph, water temp about 70, mixture leaned to peak RPM and starting fuel load 60% if you want the numbers. Very like Requiem's video, just a bit lower altitude.

I was able to enter the maneuver from level flight, no dive necessary. The airplane felt very firm and positively under control at all times, and while my technique isn't as smooth or practiced as Requiem's, I repeated it several times and finished the Cuban Eight at just about the same heading, altitude and airspeed as I began it with each time.

Possible solutions to your problem: first, I definitely think you're lacking airspeed if you lose it before the first 2/3 loop's done. Check your airspeed indicator...while I didn't have to dive it, when I reached my target altitude after climbout I did level for a moment to let the speed stabilize. The SE starts bleeding top end speed pretty quickly even in a shallow climb, that might be your culprit.

Check your wingtips, they should be just about parallel with the horizon in pitch. The SE-5 at full power at 2000 feet appears pitched down just a bit in level flight and that might be fooling you...a VSI in simple gauges would confirm whether you're at a constant altitude or not but we don't have one, unfortunately.

Again, even a shallow climb bleeds airspeed fast, the SE-5 is efficient at turning power into altitude, but you only see its blazing speeds with the nose level or pitched down.

Once over the top, you'll see in Requiem's video that he hesitates just a moment while still inverted and the nose below the horizon to allow airspeed to build (which it does rapidly, don't wait too long or you're liable to overspeed the engine), to have enough control authority to roll upright, and I did this as well, as you come over the top of the 2/3 loop and start heading downhill again your airspeed's pretty low.

Also, using rudder to assist the rollout will help and doesn't throw the nose off. I picked a ground reference point on the horizon to make sure I wasn't wobbly or sloppy when rolling out, and that helped.

Edit- just for experiment's sake, I used both left and right rollouts... they seemed about the same, nice, smooth and with good controllability either way so long as you let that airspeed build a bit.

Energy management and decent timing will have you successfully doing Cuban Eights in no time, I'm sure. I don't think modified vs. default input maps really have anything to do with it unless you're using wildly modified responses with reduced throw/endpoints.

Easy as lyin,' as little Kaylee said

Now to try doing them as cleanly in the Camel!

[MF] Gunloon

Gunloon,

Thanks for having a look and the feedback it is helpful and I will re-check everything and report back my results.

Hey you never know, I might catch less bullets sooner rather than later...

You could always do a lazy eight... That is if you want to make yourself a really easy target!

TRY?!! I do not have to try, I have natural talent... Sir I am one of the best easy targets you will meet!

Gunloon,

I am at a loss to explain why, but I cannot do a Cuban 8 in the SE5a.

Anyone care to check out the track I uploaded to see if they can spot something obvious?

http://rapidshare.com/files/415012050/SE5a_attempted_Cuban_8_Tracks.7z


Very frustrating...

Downloaded, I'll have a look at first opportunity. Sorry you're still having trouble but I'm sure it'll get sorted soon enough, maybe someone else will take a look too and have some advice after watching it

[MF] Gunloon

Okay, had a first look. A few things I can see right away, you're starting in a dive with the throttle back initially...why do this? I guarantee you can do this from level flight with full power. You won't break the engine at any point in this maneuver so long as your timing is reasonably good.

Next, it looks like you're applying a lot of back pressure quickly...I try to get back to cockpit view from external (trying to see how abrupt your control movements are), but it doesn't seem to want to...I don't mess with recording tracks as much as I ought to and it shows...but I suspect your aft pressure is abrupt and severe enough to cause an accelerated stall as you approach the top of the loop.

I'm pretty sure too that you're letting the wings get away from level in roll as you pull up...the falling out at the top may be an incipient stall rather than an accelerated one, but either way it's worsened by letting those wings get away from level.

It looks like you're using TrackIR; you need to look around more, at the wingtips as well as further upwards at the approaching horizon line as you come over the top. I also noticed you're zoomed in a bit...zooming fully out will give you more peripheral vision cues.

If you're inclined, perhaps you'll do another track, but I'd request you enable simple gauges and leave them on...at several critical points I have no idea what your airspeed is, nor your throttle setting...throttle shouldn't be an issue, BTW, there's no reason at any point in the Cuban Eight to reduce that throttle. I did several more today for fun, and I never touched it nor cut the ignition at any point. If you're worried about breaking the motor, don't. As I said, if you concentrate on timing and energy management and so long as you aren't coming downhill for too long a time, the motor will be fine.

I'll fool with this some more and see if I can't get some more out of watching it.

[MF] Gunloon

I went and recorded a track myself in hopes it'd be a bit of a reference for you, get it here

It's pretty sloppy but I'm dead tired and almost ready for bed, so it'll have to do for now. The altitude, airspeed and heading are all pretty close at the end to where they began.

One thought: are you using any 'easy piloting' aids? I never do but wonder if they might muck things up.

Good luck!

[MF] Gunloon

Did you get The Three Brazilian Women award

Ming

Teddy Bär,



Please review my track. In your track, you didn't have enough airspeed and pulled too hard. Do this lower with a nice reference. Long road or river works.


http://rapidshare.com/files/415126998/C8.rar

I did a quick loop, few cuban-8s followed by modified lazy8 and a crammy landing.

Hi guys,

I finally did something resembling a Cuban 8 if you were squinting and standing no closer than 5k.

I only mastered it just as the wife was about to drag me to bed by the ear but it would appear that the issue is how far back I am pulling on the stick.

Starting with Gunloon's advice of pulling too hard too fast I tried allowing the nose to come up naturally and then continue, ever soooo gently pulling up and all sorts of variations of this, speed was always starting at over 130mph and at times up to 150+ and still I would get the wings falling over.

I checked I was not dipping my wings which I was not and had been something I confirmed before posting.

Then by accident I did it and failed the next time and I clicked that when I did it by accident I had not pulled the stick all the way back during the manoeuvre. Normally I would eventually pull the stick back to maximum, not at the very beginning but in the early stages say 25% into the manoeuvre.

I will investigate and advice tonight when I can have the config screen up so I can determine the maximum point in which I can perform this manoeuvre.

Does this indicate I need to fix my response curves and for instance at the max point I can perform this manoeuvre have this the maximum response point? Or to put the question another way, would I be handy capping myself much if I was to setup the response curve to max out at the max point I can perform the manoeuvre?


@Sim; I have downloaded your track and will look at it tonight and learn from it.


Gunloon & Sim; Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to reply and especially to look at my track and to then provide tracks. I was so frustrated I was about to go back to Dragon Age and shelve RoF.

I can't answer about curves since I'm using FFB G940 joystick and it tells me when I'm about to enter stall. I do have to say that you never pull stick all the way back. You maximize performance by being on a edge of a stall. Usually that's during first stage. Dive - Build speed - Max Pull - relax pull, especially over the top - roll - build speed - repeat.

Hey, Teddy-

I'm glad to hear you're making some progress here. However, at the risk of making you want to slap me silly, the more I read your posts, the more I see a common quality in your tone, one that very much reminds me of a great many of my old students. This is not a slam or put down; it's just an observation of a very common human trait when someone is engaged in learning a new and heretofore unfamiliar skill.

To wit, when someone's learning a skill like flying, their mind wants to come up with a sort of mechanical procedure to use when performing a given task...kind of a 'if I put Tab A in Slot B in this situation, I should get Result X every time' thought process.

Flying is, in my considered opinion, comparable to dancing; a combination of art and science. Yes, you can formulate all sorts of rote procedures to follow in different situations, but being purely mechanical, the end result will have a stiff, mechanical and unnatural feel to it.

Also, this kind of thinking is dependent upon being able to perform it like a machine each time, and you and I are humans, not machines, so staying with the mindset will just maximize the student's chances of failure and frustration because its fundamental nature is so stiff and limited in scope.

Back in my CFI days when I encountered a student who got hung up on one particular aspect of flying, say, airspeeds to use in given situations, I would simply cover the airspeed indicator to force them to use their ears and senses to judge airspeed rather than fixating on the ASI. If they were flubbing steep turns because they were fixated on maintaining a precise 45 degree bank angle...poof! The attitude indicator got covered up, and they were forced to use the angle of the horizon in the windscreen to judge bank angle. Later, if they became so reliant on their fancy E6 electronic flight computer they got from Sporty's Pilot Shop that they forgot about the basics of compass and clock or simply looking outside for landmarks to navigate by, that sucker had its batteries removed or was just confiscated until they could do what they needed to. This attitude is not intended to belittle or thwart the student, it's just a bit of 'tough love' applied to instill good habits that would keep them out of trouble.

The very first rule that must be followed at all times is FLY THE AIRPLANE. Easy to say and deceptive in its simplicity, this is a concept that is very difficult for a student to internalize in practice.

Hint: you already know everything you need to perform this or any maneuver that a given plane is capable of.

Obsessing over curves, or setups, or 'maximum response points' is a dead end path. What you need in my judgment is a virtual CFI to give you an occasional smack with a rolled up newspaper to get your head out of graphs, charts and numbers and concentrate on FLYING the damned airplane.

At some point perhaps you'd be interested in some virtual dual in a practice listen server. As I related in my 'Ye Olde Flying Academy' thread, I was able to use ROF as an instructional tool to get a brand new pilot who'd never touched a plane's controls to the point where he was comfortable with proper takeoffs, landings, basic maneuvers, and even spin recovery in a Camel in just a little over a week by spectating his moves and coaching him on Teamspeak. They've had some success doing just this on other servers as related HERE or perhaps I could help at some point.

It's your call...basically you need to decide if you want to be a 'paint-by-the-numbers' inker, or an actual artist. I'm just passing my take on your situation along, it's entirely up to you to decide what you want to do about it.

[MF] Gunloon

Gunloon,


I think you're a bit harsh. In IL2 days, deadzone and other options made a big difference. You could set it so that full pull on stick would produce maximum performance. I think question is partially about same. He is pulling too much which causes accelerated stall. Therefore he is asking setting for maximum performance in options.

Hey Sim-

I'm not trying to be harsh, just commenting on the situation. As I said, judging from Teddy's focus here and on any number of other posts he's made (he is after all a regular here) his general demeanor reminds me exactly of many, many people I've met in the real world...it isn't a personal criticism at all, since the tendency to get hung up on mechanical or rote solutions is a very common human habit.

Maybe it's the nature of the internet, but it seems like too many times constructive criticism is immediately taken as The Dreaded Personal Attack. Nothing could be further from the truth, I want him to succeed, I'm goal oriented, and my honest professional opinion is that encouraging him...or anyone, for that matter...to get all focused on a lot of fiddling technical details is a non productive strategy. Sure, by all means get into refining one's setup when your basic skill set is developed, but until the basics are mastered it's folly to get caught up in secondary or tertiary considerations.

BTW- applying too much abrupt back pressure and possibly causing an accelerated stall was one of the first things I noticed and commented upon after watching his track. While modifying responses might help a bit in this specific case, it's just a Band-Aid to cover that overcontrolling tendency, which is the real culprit here that is the priority to address. Comes back to that basic skill set...take the time to build that solidly, and it's much easier to refine it later

[MF] Gunloon

S! Teddy,

Gunloon is spot on here. You're pulling too hard in the initial phase of the manoeuvre.

Here's a tip; just practice diving to 140 mph (no throttle reduction will be required) then pulling up to the vertical without a stall or snap roll developing - find the stick position that will do this quickest. Start with small deflections first, increasing stick deflection until you find that the aircraft misbehaves, then reduce the deflection from that point. Remember that point, don't mark it, just remember. EDIT: Just read properly the second part of your post, definitely do not change the responses so that you can't stall - positive humptys can be performed in this aircraft with the stick all the way back, you might want that advantage online some day.

One other thing you'll need to remember: References. As soon as the horizon disappears from view at the front, your focus should immediately shift to the wingtip to observe whether the aircraft is yawing - correct with rudder if it is. Try to maintain a constant pitch rate, though that isn't so important.

Once you're happy with pulling to the vertical, try completing the manoeuvre.

W.

Good hint, just about what I'd coach in Teamspeak while spectating for some moment by moment feedback...earlier, I also advised Teddy to zoom out so more peripheral vision cues would be available. Verify you're level as you begin, glance at the wingtips to ensure the horizon's rotating smoothly around them, then back upwards as you come over the top to check that the approaching horizon is aligned parallel with your wings.

BTW-speaking of reference, this is why competitive aerobatic pilots have the little wire frame gizmos mounted on their wingtips for an instant and very precise confirmation of pitch angle.

Go look up some Haute Voltige videos and watch the yummy Svetlana Kapanina work it in her Sukhoi SU-26, though I confess it's difficult taking one's eyes off the pulchritudinous Ms. K to pay attention to what the plane's doing...



EDIT- never mind searching, here's one of the finest (and cutest) pilots I've ever seen making it look easy:



But you don't have to dive to get more than sufficient speed...just level altitude, let the airspeed stabilize to 130-ish, and you've got plenty of energy to perform the maneuver. 2000 feet is plenty; if mixture's leaned for peak RPM, radiator temp at least 65 and throttle's full, energy will be more than sufficient.

[MF] Gunloon

Can't wait until we get some flyable two-seaters in this game - they would be perfect for coaching new pilots - if we could get a training aircraft or two.



What a great word. Used it to describe an unsuspecting female at work once; I told her she could look it up once she got home. We walked out together for some years after that.



W