#3055729 - 07/19/10 10:20 PM
This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,786
PFunk
SimHQ Redneck
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SimHQ Redneck
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,786
N. Central Texas
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From AI that can't find their ass with either hand (and thus get shot down like dogs) to AI that cheats like hell at Hard settings, I am frustrated beyond belief.
There is very little reason to fly on Hard settings. When the AI can take an Su-7 Fitter and scream on bombings runs at 700 knots, turn on a frickin' pin and engage multiple fighters with better aircraft and ThirdWire Aces manning them, I see no reason to fly at Hard settings and I'm seeing fewer reasons to even fly this game.
Fighters Anthology was programmed in 1998, you'd think it'd be easier by now to program AI that can do a little more than dogfight. That's all they seem to want to do. Could they just once try to engage me at a distance?
I used to be this game's biggest cheerleader.
pfunk
"A little luck & a little government is necessary to get by, but only a fool places his complete trust in either one." - PJ O'Rourke www.sixmanfootball.com
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#3056347 - 07/20/10 06:11 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: LordTeaBiscut]
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster
Member
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Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
UK
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Not sure but the Hard setting is more like a game hard setting now where everything is made harder for you. Personally I quite like the game on that setting - a challenge at least - yeah my wingies always buy it but it keeps me on my toes when I have to do most of the work haha.
'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
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#3056649 - 07/21/10 02:29 AM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: MigBuster]
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,749
streakeagle
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,749
Seffner, FL USA
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To get the proper balance of AI behavior, you have to set AI to Normal. Hard will make friendly AI more likely to be Novices. The realistic flight model used by the player is too difficult for AI to fly, so they fly by normal flight model rules. The simplifications used for the normal flight model result in some unusual flight characteristics. The flight data ini for each aircraft is still at too low of a resolution to cover the transonic region accurately even with hard FM, so some aircraft will end up having a supercruise capability that shouldn't and some aircraft will have trouble breaking the sound barrier that shouldn't. At least TK makes the AI fly by the same basic rules of the player. In most other games, AI flight behavior is much less based on real physics. Kind of like the canned Cobra maneuver in LOMAC. It looks like the aircraft is doing a Cobra, but it is a preprogrammed maneuver triggered by hitting a single key rather than the product of aerodynamic forces modeled in the game.
If you want advanced AI, go Rowans BoB or MA in 1 v 1 matches against aces. Of course, BoB 2 is even better. But the mass bomber formations are more like cans sitting on a fence. They are lined up for your shooting pleasure, but aren't really "flying" by hyperdetailed physics modeling.
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#3057003 - 07/21/10 04:11 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: rockhpi]
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,786
PFunk
SimHQ Redneck
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SimHQ Redneck
Veteran
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Posts: 13,786
N. Central Texas
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I tell you, I could forgive a little if the enemy AI in aircraft was at least as aggressive as the AI manning the ground-based anti-aircraft emplacements.
I think during the years I've flown this sim, I can count on the fingers of two hands the number of times the AI pilots have engaged me with BVR radar-guided missiles in just a stock environment. The basics should be there, point blank.
pfunk
"A little luck & a little government is necessary to get by, but only a fool places his complete trust in either one." - PJ O'Rourke www.sixmanfootball.com
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#3057084 - 07/21/10 05:28 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: PFunk]
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster
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Member
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Posts: 2,169
UK
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I think during the years I've flown this sim, I can count on the fingers of two hands the number of times the AI pilots have engaged me with BVR radar-guided missiles in just a stock environment. The basics should be there, point blank.
pfunk
The MiG-23s I believe are the only MiGs to have medium range radar guided missiles - and have no problem locking onto me - but cant say I have counted the amount of times they are using IR or RH rounds - but not something I noticed as being wrong. Granted the friendly AI seem to have no trouble firng AIM-7s into the ether at Max range.
'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
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#3057089 - 07/21/10 05:36 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: rockhpi]
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster
Member
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Member
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Posts: 2,169
UK
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I'm so torn about the series. Great planes, fun to fly but so many little things that annoy. I used to like to fly the SF1 Iran/Iraq mod and I remember so many times when an F-14 would fly a dead straight line and let me creep up right behind in my MiG-21 and take him out with no attempt to evade whatsoever. And theres part of the problem - not sure why people think you can't sneak up in a jet easily like that - has happened all the time in the various jet conflicts. So people complain and now we get a totally game like situation where the enemy knows you are there 99% of the time - no doubt more fun for practising AA combat though - but not as realistic in this era. Having done a fair amount of development in the past I totally understand why they have to chose the requests they carry out carefully. Even after finally implementing the "Request for Help" radio feature there are people moaning about it - you cant please everyone. anyway I will still support them while they continues to bring in new features.
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#3058632 - 07/23/10 07:16 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: PFunk]
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,834
Boilerplate*
Viceroy of Huntly
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Viceroy of Huntly
Hotshot
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,834
Virginia, USA
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This is indeed a surprising development. Though I haven't played for 3 years myself. I only went as far as SFP1 for a few years before putting it down in favor of IL2 '46. Initially, the Cold War theme was attractive along with the enticing graphics and numerous terrains, aircraft, and campaigns. Unfortunately for me the empty suited aircraft became trite and after a while made gameplay sterile. Fubar did some AI improvements one time, yet they appeared to be only reflected with the enemy AI. This didn't do my survivability rate any good. More often that not I would deploy on a mission knowing that I'd die anyway. Well that's my wimper for the day. Nice to see Migbuster at his post as always.
It's a Game.
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#3060278 - 07/26/10 03:32 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: xpublius]
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,786
PFunk
SimHQ Redneck
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SimHQ Redneck
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N. Central Texas
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Coming from Flanker, the missile effectiveness of the enemy AI is awful. Your missile effectiveness, on the other hand, isn't too bad.
The missile effectiveness is not the part that's bothersome, it's that the AI hasn't a single clue on how to use them. Unless they're a SAM operator, then they'll fill the skies with them until they're out.
The flight models are...passable, but then, I've seen aircraft in IL-2 do things I cannot as well, so it's an unfair comparison.
There are three flight models, easy, normal, and hard. There is no good reason to fly anything other than normal. There's also no good reason to set the game difficulty to Hard. The AI cheats like hell and the game literally gets the fun sucked right out of it.
Flight models seem to mimic the conventional wisdom of the day, the MiG-17 will out-maneuver an F-4, and so on. One thing you will find maddeningly irritating is that the AI always, ALWAYS wants to dogfight, which generally means your AI wingmen (and pretty much every other friendly aircraft) get the living piss shot out of them.
I used to be able to overlook these issues, as you can see that's no longer the case.
pfunk
"A little luck & a little government is necessary to get by, but only a fool places his complete trust in either one." - PJ O'Rourke www.sixmanfootball.com
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#3060445 - 07/26/10 07:50 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: xpublius]
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster
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Member
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Posts: 2,169
UK
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What is the consensus on missile effectiveness? I realize this is not IL2 level flight model fidelity, but how close are the models, on a 1-10 scale. Are altitude effects modeled? Roll rates? At least the tactics should work; F4 Phantom using high-speed, ect. Yawn...from what modders who have worked on the FMs over the years on Jets the FM fidelity potential is very high - but you wouldnt expect anything else from someone who majored in Aerospace engineering I guess. http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic...ity&start=8
'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
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#3060471 - 07/26/10 08:23 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: PFunk]
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster
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Member
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Posts: 2,169
UK
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Coming from Flanker, the missile effectiveness of the enemy AI is awful. Your missile effectiveness, on the other hand, isn't too bad.
The missile effectiveness is not the part that's bothersome, it's that the AI hasn't a single clue on how to use them. Unless they're a SAM operator, then they'll fill the skies with them until they're out.
The flight models are...passable, but then, I've seen aircraft in IL-2 do things I cannot as well, so it's an unfair comparison.
There are three flight models, easy, normal, and hard. There is no good reason to fly anything other than normal. There's also no good reason to set the game difficulty to Hard. The AI cheats like hell and the game literally gets the fun sucked right out of it.
Flight models seem to mimic the conventional wisdom of the day, the MiG-17 will out-maneuver an F-4, and so on. One thing you will find maddeningly irritating is that the AI always, ALWAYS wants to dogfight, which generally means your AI wingmen (and pretty much every other friendly aircraft) get the living piss shot out of them.
I used to be able to overlook these issues, as you can see that's no longer the case.
pfunk This is what I see is currently happening in regards to 2 of the issues: 1. The Friendly AI always try to get into low speed high alpha turning fights regardless of opposition and dont energy fight. A few months back in a Nesher (Yom Kippur Campaign) I completed the campaign on all hard settings and only lost about 5 wingies - how you ask - Mig-21s - my Wingies could compete on equal terms in a turning fight and thus often shot down the MiG-21 or got into stalemate. Now a MiG-15/17/Meteor/Vampire will make mince meat out of pretty much everything bar a Meteor. 2. The friendly AI ignore your orders and do their own thing - normally dying in the process. This never used to happen and its flipping annoying. Until thats changed either use medium settings or the new request for help feature - and remember that you sometimes you will have to run for it - and also forget your wingman he aint listening!. Now if you ask TK he might say this is how he wants it to provide a challenge as part of the game. Personally the most challenging jet to be in is the Mystere - but thats just me.
'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
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#3060538 - 07/26/10 09:32 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: MigBuster]
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,786
PFunk
SimHQ Redneck
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SimHQ Redneck
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N. Central Texas
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The Mystere was a pleasant surprise for me, and I preferred it to the Mirage during the Six-Day War campaign.
pfunk
"A little luck & a little government is necessary to get by, but only a fool places his complete trust in either one." - PJ O'Rourke www.sixmanfootball.com
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#3065804 - 08/02/10 10:18 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: Aladar]
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 179
MetalMania
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Member
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Rhode Island, USA
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I can understand your frustration, I share it too although to be fair I still need to upgrade the original titles to the latest patch so there may be features that are now there that I haven't seen yet. And I'm holding off on SF2 series until I geta new computer with DX10 support.
Anyway yeah, AI is maddeningly inept a lot of the time. And things like having absolutely nothing in the game itself to help you figure out how to hit a target with regular dumb bombs. I know there are user tutuorials and that's fine but you're totally on your own. How about functioning VASI lights or some kind of glideslope indicator for airfields or especially carriers? Built in air refueling (YAP does it just fine with a little imagination, so it's not impossible)? Or a built in mission editor and mission recorder. I know the games are "lite" sims - and from a perspective of being about flying the planes and doing the missions instead of taking a graduate course in operating a radar system they're great. But how many of the same requests have been made for features and/or fixes for years on end and the response is usually "we have no money for that". I don't expect a study sim level of detail here, and I really DO appreciate TKs continued commitment to the series and acknowledge that there HAVE been improvements along the way. But it just feels like it's getting stale. A lot of things people want are not "rivet counter" types of things, but general features that have been around for many years in most other games of this type.
On the other hand, when I've only got an hour to play a combat flight sim, TW are just about the only ones I can jump right into and get a quick fix. I just wish they felt a little more complete, even at the "lite" level.
You know, I've personally flown over 194 missions and I was shot down on every one. Come to think of it, I've never landed a plane in my life. - Admiral Benson, Hot Shots
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#3071608 - 08/11/10 08:04 PM
Re: This Game Has Annoyed Me for The Last Time...
[Re: MigBuster]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,002
rockhpi
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Member
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Posts: 2,002
Hazel Park, MI
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And theres part of the problem - not sure why people think you can't sneak up in a jet easily like that - has happened all the time in the various jet conflicts. So people complain and now we get a totally game like situation where the enemy knows you are there 99% of the time - no doubt more fun for practising AA combat though - but not as realistic in this era. That was not the problem. I would replay the mission and the same F-14 would be coming back at the same place every time. He approached from my 12 o'clock (where he ought to pick me up), ignore me, let me fly up behind him and shoot him down, every time. If I fired a missile at him, if I fired cannon at him, never any attempt to evade. I actually TRIED to get his attention-i could fly alongside him, he wouldn't budge. At the time, I believe someone postulated that planes low on fuel would fly a dead straight line back to base without evading but I don't know if that was ever confirmed. It was not a one-time instance of me surprising an AI plane.
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