#3045775 - 07/04/10 09:57 PM
Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
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PeterMBooth
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Pontypridd, South Wales,UK
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Hi Guys,
This is I suspect one for the Luftwaffe colour scheme experten. Iron Mike and myself have been discussing the Fw 190 displayed in the Imperial War Museum in London. It is years since I saw it and I cannot find my photos, so we are working on one Mike has showing only the rear of the aircraft. The fuselage has no unit markings and is painted in what seems a rather dark grey mottle over a lighter grey which seems normal enough, but the horizontal tail surfaces and presumably the wing upper surfaces are also mottled instead of the green or grey splinter pattern we would perhaps normally expect.
Research shows that it is a FW190 A8, either R6 or R7 and when it was captured it was the top component of a Mistel S 3A. The lower component would have been a Ju88G, possibly an ex nightfighter and the S apparently indicates it was a training version. Pictures of earlier Misteln I have found show a former Ju88 A series bomber with splinter camo on the wings, but the later Ju88G version seems to have had in some if not all cases a mottle, again a legacy of them being nightfighters I guess and neither component seem to have had unit codes so that fits. Unfortunately I cannot find any pictures of the top Fw190 component showing the upper wing camo but perhaps that too would have been mottled to match the Ju88 in which case this is not only a rare bird but one with accurate colours allowing for ageing and the coat of gloss protective varnish that has been applied at some time? It also has some greenish yellow patches on parts of the tail both horizontal and vertical which might indicate repairs to battle damage.
Does anybody have information on this Mistel combination which would cast some light on the paint scheme?
Incidentally, Fran, if you read this I sent you a PM over a week ago - did you get it?
Cheers
Peter
With increasing age should come wisdom and tolerance, but as the saying goes, "there is no fool like an old fool" as I prove regularly!
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#3045789 - 07/04/10 10:15 PM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: PeterMBooth]
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Col. Gibbon
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INDIVIDUAL HISTORY FOCKE WULF FW190 F-8/U1 W/NR.584219/AIR MINISTRY 29/8470M MUSEUM ACCESSION NUMBER 1990/0696/A
1944 Built, probably by Arado plant at Warnemünde, as a standard
F-8 single seat variant.
Late 1944 Converted from single to tandem two seat standard by R Sochor Fabrik at Blanz-Blansko in Poland, as indicated by the manufacturers' code `HRZ' on the data plate - Photo: Aeroplane Monthly March 1976 p.153. In the 1980s the date 10/11/44 was found on the bulkhead at the rear of the second cockpit.
Some 20 FW190 2-seaters were produced, mainly through field conversions from single-seaters, and used as conversion trainers for Ju87 pilots and as high-speed liaison aircraft.
May 45 Surrendered at Grove airfield, Denmark, coded `Black 38' - unit possibly Jagdfliegerschule 103.
A second FW190 F-8/U1, W/Nr 580058 was captured in Denmark and allotted Air Min 36 but not apparently delivered to the UK.
02 Sep 45 Ferried from the collection centre at Fliegerhorst Schleswig, Germany via Gilze-Rijen to RAE Farnborough by Flt Lt Lawson.
05 Sep 45 Flown to No.6 MU Brize Norton for storage by Lt Cdr E M `Winkle' Brown. Probably not actually test flown in the UK.
Mar 46 Recorded on home census.
May 46 Selected for preservation by the Air Historical Branch.
17 Jul 46 To No.76 MU Wroughton for Museum storage.
1946 With the closure of No.76 MU later that year the aircraft may have gone to No.47 MU Sealand alongside other Axis aircraft.
1949 Recorded at the German Air Force Equipment Centre at RAF Stanmore Park, Middlesex by this date carrying data plate in front cockpit with legend FW190-9026-Z06. (Air Pictorial Jan 54 p.184).
Late 1955 To No.15 MU Wroughton, Wilts for storage with rest of AHB collection.
©ROYAL AIR FORCE MUSEUM 2007
2
Sep 56 Displayed at RAF Little Rissington Battle of Britain Day. Photo: Air Pictorial Dec 56 p.421. Still carried Luftwaffe colour scheme, RAF roundels and fin flashes and `Air Ministry 29' on rear port fuselage. A second photo, possibly on some occasion, from the starboard side shows RAF markings over Luftwaffe colour scheme with figure `29' only painted on fuselage decking - see the Focke Wulf FW190 Swanborough/Green (DoRIS Ref.006228) p.132.
c.Mid 1958 To Air Historical Branch store at RAF Fulbeck, Lincs.
Sep 60 Displayed at RAF Finningley, Yorks Battle of Britain Open Day Display (Northern Aero News Nov 60 p.70) Photo: Airfix Magazine Feb 61 p.424.
c.1961 To RAF Henlow, Beds. Photo: Airfix Magazine Dec 66 p.143. Had arrived by 24 Feb 61 - Air Britain Digest May 61 p.56.
Sep 64 Displayed at RAF Gaydon, Warwickshire Battle of Britain Display.
c.Sep 1970 Moved from Henlow to RAF St Athan to join the Historic Aircraft Collection, and displayed at that years' Battle of Britain Display. For 3-view of aircraft at this time - but shown with heavier framed rear canopy than that carried since 1956 at least - see the FW 190 - A Famous German Fighter. Nowarra (Ed) (003656) p.182. Colour photo as of 18 September 1971 – War prizes – The Album p.107.
1972 Volunteers commenced 18-month refurbishment and repainting. Photos post restoration, again as `Black 38 - Aviation News 19 Feb - 3 Mar 88 p.918; Aircraft and Legend - Fw190 and Ta 152 (023555) p.105; Aeroplane Monthly March 1976 p.152. Restoration found the aircraft to be complete and in good order, with fuel still in the tanks. Allocated maintenance serial 8470M c.1976 whilst at St Athan.
1973
Displayed at RAF Chivenor. Photos: Airfix Magazine Nov 1973 p.142-4
13 Feb 76 Allotted RAF Maintenance Serial 8470M.
Aug 84 BMW 801 D-2 engine rebuilt to ground-running condition; the engine fired at the first attempt and was then regularly run at open days. Photos: War Prizes (027726) p.155; Wrecks and Relics 11th edition p.186; FlyPast Nov 84 p.39; Aeroplane Monthly Oct 84 p.547; Friends of The Manchester Air & Space Museum Sep 84; Flypast August 2006 p.29.
30 Nov 89 Delivered to RAFM Hendon following closure and dispersal of the St Athan regional collection. Remains on display at the Bomber Command Hall, painted in the markings of 1/JG54. Photos: FlyPast Feb 90 p.28; Scale Models International May 1990 p.214; Supplement to Aeroplane April 2001 p.36; Flypast August 2006 p.29.
TEXT - ANDREW SIMPSON
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/10598754@N08/4468990661/sizes/l/
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#3046076 - 07/05/10 02:55 PM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: PeterMBooth]
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Fran_Zee
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Bavaria
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Hi Peter! First - I´ve missed your PM, unfortunately  Now that I´ve noticed it I´m going to answer it as soon as possible - a rather tricky topic As for the Mistel - most Mistletoes had been a combination of re-used and recycled airframes. Especially the Ju 88´s only purpose was to take off and fly to the target. The original camo was left unchanged so you can find obsolete splinter bomber camos beside recycled mottled nightfighters. Same goes for the fighter unit on top. Fighter-bombers had been preferred because they featured the devices to release the Ju 88 with warhead. This particular Fw 190 had received a completely new BMW 801 engine unit ("Kraftei" - power egg), recognizable at the simplified camo applied on the engine covers: Here´s a model view: http://www.scaleworkshop.com/workshop/mistels3cov_1.htmThe upper wing areas of the Fw 190 certainly had not been mottled to match the Ju 88 surfaces and retained their original factory scheme. The suggested grey camo combo (RLM 74/75) would only be valid it it´s an early A-8. Otherwise all late-war combinations like grey + green or brown + green would be possible depending on the manufacturer. Remember, the Mistel was a one-way weapon. There was no need to adjust the old camo in any way. Btw, the S3C was a trainer unit, recognizable at the Ju 88´s cockpit and the faired over gun troughs of the Fw 190. The IWM camo is rubbish - a scale model camo applied on the real thing
Greetings Fran http://www.sandbagger.uk.com/franzee.html______________________________________________ "War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so."( Bertrand Russell )
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#3046279 - 07/05/10 09:40 PM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: Fran_Zee]
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Posts: 1,248
PeterMBooth
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Pontypridd, South Wales,UK
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Hi John,
Originally wrong plane, but I see you have found the right one now - "More realistic colours" - presume the pics are after Mike and I visited and it was repainted?.
Hi Fran,
Thanks for that - you may well be right but the apparent damage repairs bother me. As a trainer could it have been mottled to merge with the lower component due to ground stafing attacks? As you yourself told me some time ago ground crews improvised with whatever paint they had to hand, particularly I suspect in 1945. Having said that it has apparently been repainesd a couple of years after Mike visited and now looks more like a standard 190 I think - you may not agree. Lovely kit by the way.
Look forward to you reply to the PM.
Cheers both,
Peter
With increasing age should come wisdom and tolerance, but as the saying goes, "there is no fool like an old fool" as I prove regularly!
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#3046693 - 07/06/10 04:37 PM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: Col. Gibbon]
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Fran_Zee
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Peter, the Luftwaffe did not waste any efforts on re-camouflaging short-lived "Flying Bombs". E.g. AirMin 77, a Ju 88A-6 functioning as lower part of a British-captured Mistel S 3B even retained its meandering squiggle camo when changing from maritime service to Mistel trainer duties. The fuselages with nightfighter camo did not have different ground concealment problems than the light grey nightfighters still in service. They were camouflaged by nets and branches. Btw, changing the engine unit does not mean damage but may significate a worn-out aging engine. Late-war Luftwaffe engines were manufactured as complete units ("Triebwerk") complete with radiators. piping andrudimentary camouflaged covers. Of course the camo schemes did not match. At this time of war this was not of any importance. Which problems do you have with the camo of AirMin 29? http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/mikermurphy/Captured%20German%20aircraft/Fw190trainerAM29.jpg
Greetings Fran http://www.sandbagger.uk.com/franzee.html______________________________________________ "War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so."( Bertrand Russell )
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#3046834 - 07/06/10 09:10 PM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: Fran_Zee]
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Joined: Jul 2002
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PeterMBooth
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Pontypridd, South Wales,UK
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Ok Fran,
Sure you are right. As to the new scheme some of the mottle on the fuselage looks a bit dark blue, but I guess the restorers would have researched it better than I can.
Cheers
Peter
PS - John,
Could "Pembury" actually be "Pembrey" in Wales where I seem to recall Oberleutnant Arnim Faber, Adjutant of III/JG2 landed his FW190A-3 on June 23rd 1942 having apparently flown a reciprocal course and mistaken the Bristol Channel for the Emglish Channel, or so Green reports?
With increasing age should come wisdom and tolerance, but as the saying goes, "there is no fool like an old fool" as I prove regularly!
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#3047534 - 07/07/10 10:08 PM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: Col.J.D.Landers]
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PeterMBooth
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Pontypridd, South Wales,UK
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Hi Col Landers,
Very interesting . I think Fran is almost certainly right about the upper component FW190 being in "normal" camo - as he says why bother changing it? I also suspect that the one exhibited at Farnborough immediately after the war as in your first link may well be the FW190 that ended up at the IWM, though why or when it was apparently repainted remains unknown. If the odd greenish grey splodges are battle damage repairs then that would seem to suggest that it was never repainted at all, but that does not seem to make sense. I guess we will never know,
Thanks for that,
Peter
With increasing age should come wisdom and tolerance, but as the saying goes, "there is no fool like an old fool" as I prove regularly!
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#3047541 - 07/07/10 10:16 PM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: Col.J.D.Landers]
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Col. Gibbon
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Check out this thread. http://www.luftwaffeexperten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=9704&st=0&p=52326&hl=+raf%20+mistel&fromsearch=1&#entry52326 And this is the unit scrapped at Schleswig in 1946. The Ju88 is wrknr 714633 with Fw190 A-8 formerly of IV./KG 200. This is supposed to be the IWM Fw190, but it could be the one in the book in Farnborough.  The Farnborough Mistel.  Now I'm confused!
Last edited by Col. Gibbon; 07/07/10 10:20 PM.
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#3047627 - 07/08/10 12:54 AM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: Col. Gibbon]
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Flying Tiger
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Geelong . Australia
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remember this brilliant add-on? no props or harness on the ju88 but still clever.... 
Flying Tiger
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#3047750 - 07/08/10 08:00 AM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: Col. Gibbon]
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Fran_Zee
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No need to be confused, John  The british captured at least three Mitel units and allocated AirMin numbers to them as follows: AM 75 - Junkers Ju88/Focke-Wulf Fw190A-8/R6 Mistel S 3B - Ju88 W.Nr.unknown, Fw190 W.Nr.733682 - IV./KG200 - Ju88 scrapped 1945, Fw190 on static display at Imperial War Museum, London AM 76 - Junkers Ju88/Focke-Wulf Fw190A-8 Mistel S 3B - Both W.Nr. unknown - IV./KG200 - neither delivered to UK AM 77 - Junkers Ju88/Focke-Wulf Fw190A Mistel S 3A - Ju88 W.Nr.2492, Fw190 W.Nr.733759 - IV./KG200 - both scrapped Obviously AirMin 75 and 77 were delivered to UK. I´m sure the transfer was made with the planes seperated so it is possible our IWM Fw190 may have changed "horses" when having arrived in Great Britain. (Though looking at the non-identical spinners it may be possible those are two different Fw 190s - one spinner is certainly half black/white) What can be seen is the standard camo of both Fw 190s, both fuselage sides with a dense, foggy mottling This Mistel S2 was photographed at Tirstrup (DK) airbase. The lower Ju88G-1 component has the W.Nr.714633 and has a non-standard all-glass bomber nose. It is finished in 74/75/76 and has a red number 11 on the vertical stabiliser. The Fw190 lacks any wing armament and is finished in 74/75/76 and has a roughly painted yellow 2 on its rudder.
Last edited by Fran_Zee; 07/08/10 08:18 AM. Reason: Photo caption added
Greetings Fran http://www.sandbagger.uk.com/franzee.html______________________________________________ "War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so."( Bertrand Russell )
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#3048076 - 07/08/10 09:16 PM
Re: Luftwaffe Mistel color schemes
[Re: Col. Gibbon]
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PeterMBooth
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Thanks John,
One thing seems certain, it is not a Mistel S-3C as I believe the IWM site says - that would involve a FW190F not A by the looks of it. Guess we will never know for sure - perhaps it had RAF markings painted on after capture and then somebody went to Woolworths (or more probably aquired a few tins of spare RLM colours), got a mix of grey paints and blotched it all over. At least it looks a lot better now.
Whatever, it has been an interesting thread and I am glad I asked.
Cheers all,
Peter
With increasing age should come wisdom and tolerance, but as the saying goes, "there is no fool like an old fool" as I prove regularly!
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