No, not looking to start a war about which is 'best', just wondering about a little comparison.

I know they are different animals, but still, they are both helo sims.

I did some EECH awhile ago (still trying to get it to run properly now), so I'm looking for opinions from guys who have played both before (if) buying into Black Shark.

Honestly, I enjoyed Longbow2 more than EECH, and that's not saying one was better than the other, just my take. Although I thought EECH was fun too (except for that nasal ATC woman... man, she drove me nuts!)

So... what do you guys think?

Armenian brandy (cognac) Great Ararat 5 stars is much better than both of that crap.
(Belly laugh) HA-HA-HA.

Methinks you've been hitting too much of the brandy.

**As a simulator--

Well as far as "Heli Flight Simulators" go Blackshark is miles ahead.

**Mission variety--

EECH wins here, with a dynamic campaign engine, a variety of flyable aircraft.

**Complexity--

The DCS pit is in a league of its own regards cockpit systems. That being said though, once your airbourne I think the EECH Apache's variety of combat systems offer more than DCS Blackshark being purely optical.

**Flight Dynamics--

DCS Blackshark of course is well ahead

**AI--

I find EECH's AI to me more reactive to threat. eg: if you assault a FARP enemy aircraft will often be tasked your way, so dont hang around. In DCS if you dont fly the correct course AI triggers can fail result in a stationry enemy, or no enemy at all.

**Terrain--

DCS is a higher quality, but the trees have no collission effect. I like the dynamic weather in EECH as well.

Conclusion-

I still fly both sims, DSC is a joy to fly as a simulator, but lacks mission variety. EECH is a lot of fun to fly, the gameplay being more fluid, and varied.

My thoughts anyhow

Thanks Colonel, nice breakdown.

In my eyes, DCS:BS is nothing but a graphics and flight model demo. I see no point in buying a flightsim that runs on stone-age scripted campaigns.

So would you say DCS:BS is similar to Lockon in the campaign area? That's one of the things I didn't care for in Lockon, it just didn't seem very immersive. Pretty to fly around in, but not much depth.

If DCS and longbow2 like windows,then EECH most like linux,It's specialty and growing.we always get hope.

Yep, exactly.

With that much excess computing power avaiable nowadays it shouldn't be too hard to at least have a turn-based dynamic campaign runinng in the background (like DCG for IL-2).

I mean, even TK could implement one in his "Strike Fighters" series of games, and he's "just" a one-man company!

That isn't entirely correct (in my opinion). The one thing that DCS/Black Shark missions can give you is a mission scenario that is very challenging and hand-crafted to make it more immersive. I mean, I love the dynamic campaign of EECH for longevity, but when you look at the EECH on a more micro level, the missions all fit a very generic template based on the type of mission you are flying. But with a skilled mission designer, the missions in Flaming Cliffs or Black Shark can be sort of very involved and require a lot of skill to perform. The human designing it can think about a lot of contingencies and can craft a story around the mission that just can't really be accomplished with the cookie cutter template of the EECH missions.

Comparing the two or giving a valuation of the two is difficult and subjective. I enjoy clearing a map in EECH for the feeling of accomplishment just like I enjoy figuring out a tricky custom mission in Black Shark. The same, but different..

I guess most people have PCs very fast GFX cards.
I am still running this sim on a 6 year old PC.
EECH runs fine on any (or at least most-) PC being sold these days.
Even on an AMD 3500+/nv7600 I can run with ALL options on HIGH @ 1600x1200 resolution
and EECH looks wonderfull, even, IMHO, by todays' standards.
EECH can be easily tuned/set-up to be *very* accessible (being 'fun' at the same time) indeed. However if you like in-depth/study sims, Arneh's upcoming Apache Modernization version should make this THE sim for any AH64D addict as well.
Important to some is also pricing ... you can't go wrong for 10 USD: EECH is like the best deal you'll ever get in a lifetime !
DCS: BS ... well let's just say I personally don't really like the kind of DRM it uses.
OTOH I can see why people rave on about DCS: judging by the many screen shots, video's and reviews I have seen/read BS must be the ultimate Helo sim ... especially visually.
So my conclusion: BOTH are winners, depending.

Mission generator does use genreic templates but once in a while a lot of flights doing their generic business cross their paths on such an incredible way that the players get a mission they remember for weeks.
I mean most of dynamic campaign missions are pure routine, but sometimes it comes up with something devious a human would not design deliberately. That's kinda awesome. Actually procedural generation of levels/missions/gameplay can become a big thing in the future IF people bother to code game worlds in more detail instead of releasing tons of "sandbox" titles with no depth.

I bought DCS but have already shelved it due to the fact there is no dynamic campaign.EECH is the better product.Other then a realistic flight model the world around black shark is scripted and mindless.I don't buy many sim's without the dynamic campaign option.I guess that's what I always revert back to Falcon 4.0(Free Falcon),EECH,and TAW.Much more fun IMHO.

DCS is great because of its' complexity. But the flight model is horrible. If that is real then I wonder how many pilots survives their flights. Iguess that must be something with my controller cause I don't believe it's so hard to pilot the shark.
CCEH is FUN, DCS:BS is STRUGGLE.

Both have excessive aerodynamic streamlining/weather-veining, especially below 50kts. I think Arneh resolved some of the yaw bounce in EECH, but it still gets really stiff too quickly and the values that control this in the ini don't work. Blackshark has maybe less, but a somewhat broken yaw damper it seems and even more bounce issues. You should be able to clear the yaw trim in both sims and be able to rotate the aircraft faster when you're not going super fast. They both perform at times like the air is twice as thick as it really is to the tail when in forward flight. You can actually get more accurate performance of the yaw in MSFS (aside from its extreme bounce in 2004/9 because of a broken damper), X-Plane (when you click the damper off momentarily like in real life), and (oddly enough) Comanche Gold with some GlovePIE scripting. Need to check Gunship!. Off the top of my head I think it might be in the good group in regards to the yaw. The pedals often called the most important flight control in conventional prop aircraft, fixed wing or rotorcraft.

DCS is a very good simulator and a poor game. If you want realism above all else, DCS is the game software to get.

EECH is a good simulator and a good game. If you want a good balance of simulation and fun, with longevity (because of the dynamic campaign), get EECH. It's cheaper, too.


Even if the cost of EECH was $6 like EECH is I'd still prefer EECH.

Two side notes:
1) There are plans to have a DC in future versions of DCS. Judging by Eagle Dynamics's history so far, they will probably release the DC as a paid add-on which is compatible with all DCS modules. I would estimate that it will cost $20 to $40, but it's just speculation.
2) Previous posters have mentioned that you can create very immersive missions from the DCS mission editor. This is correct, but:
2a) ... you have very limited transfer between missions. For example, in most cases, if you destroy a tank platoon in one mission, it will be there again in the following mission. So you can create an immersive mission, but you still don't get an immersive campaign.
2b) ... go have a look at ED's website. There aren't that many user-made missions for Blackshark, and it's already 2-3 years old.

I was always frustrated by the lack of target diversity and the lack of infantry in EECH... another major issue is the enemy AI - helicopters typically will not attack you.

That said, my main frustration in EECH was the high pilot workload - the AI copilot simply wasn't quite good enough. So, one ends up having to fly, fight and fiddle with avoinics... which can take away some of the fun. This is several times worse in DCS:BS - where one has to be very fast with the cockpit switches if one is to maintain any situational awareness!

On top of that, DCS:BS makes rockets very frustrating to use (instead of them being a way to relax). However, for the experience of the flight model it is wonderful. The switchology can also be kinda-neat. My own personal preference would be for a version of DCS with a Civilian helicopter... or at least a third-line combat helicopter (ie. I wouldn't mind an Mi-8T for hunting insurgence with)...

LB2, BS/BS2, EECH... depends on what you're in the mood to do. Multiplayer-wise, EECH campaigns as co-op with comms is just amazing.

Avimimus, depending on which helo flight(s) are in the vicinity, the enemy copters are a lot more hungry and blood-thirsty in the latest allmods 1.14(1). Hinds not so much; Ka-50s are sneaky and lethal.

I guess my Saitek profiles make it very easy in EECH. I don't find the work load excessive unless I have auto CM off and accidentally screwed up a jammer mapping. My new X65F one is almost as good as the X52 profile, though I haven't yet bothered with the modes or engine startup on it. Not sure if I will. The flight model doesn't thrill me in EE, though. Lack of nuance doesn't help. The autopilot is a constant temptation just switch on and stop flying since the flying can put me to sleep. That's a bad sign. One of the code mods that was reversed actually made the AP realistic, so you had to babysit it to avoid kissing a mountain side. Maybe that's something that should be included again for when you're actually in the helo.

Blackshark only gets boring from the standpoint of the missions and the environment. The flight model in the yaw is too thick and wobbly still, but very nuanced overall. Very repetitive missions, though.

Longbow 2 is fantastic in most of the important areas, except I'm still having a little stability issues and I can't use the new rudder pedals I just bought. Still worth checking out and trying for people.

Seriously, if EECH's yaw weatherveining/streamlining effect could be toned down by 25% on all the helos (maybe 50% on the Comanche and Havok) and that butt ugly white blinding skyline fog could be darkened, it would be worth getting some multiplayer servers going. Getting low RPM stalls would be icing on the cake. A little bit of simplicity to the EECH flight model isn't so much an issue as the tail whipping the hell around all the time and just feeling so wrong. The AP is just as perfect in LB2, but the flying in that one is good enough to keep it off.

Blackshark I can tolerate overall in small doses until the mission repetition gets to me. Longbow 2 is intoxicating... until my next CTD. Comanche Gold with the GlovePIE stuff I do, well, pretty cool if you can get past the blocky but usable graphics... until the non-branching missions make it inherently repetitive as you try to get past the next "level/mission". I would probably enjoy CG multiplayer. At least LB2 has a level of variation that fools you into thinking it's dynamic, yet not so unstructured that it gets so big as to make your contribution pointless... kind of like Allied Force. Sometimes you get lost in big campaigns. The Janes system tends to work well for solo flying, while campaigns for me really need multiplayer.

O.k. BMS calls. (as the rotorheads look around and pretend they don't know me)

By the way, I have a crappy lil laptop off at school and simply tune EE waaay down, including all the new terrain, clouds, and dust off. 16bit color. 30-60fps usually. It is very scaleable. If you have a top machine it can do some great new visual things. And very stable as long as you're not doing lots of alt-tabs back and forth too frequently.