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#2987199 - 04/01/10 04:03 AM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: BeachAV8R]
SimFan Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/01
Posts: 531
Loc: Europe
I guess most people have PCs very fast GFX cards.
I am still running this sim on a 6 year old PC.
EECH runs fine on any (or at least most-) PC being sold these days.
Even on an AMD 3500+/nv7600 I can run with ALL options on HIGH @ 1600x1200 resolution
and EECH looks wonderfull, even, IMHO, by todays' standards.
EECH can be easily tuned/set-up to be *very* accessible (being 'fun' at the same time) indeed. However if you like in-depth/study sims, Arneh's upcoming Apache Modernization version should make this THE sim for any AH64D addict as well.
Important to some is also pricing ... you can't go wrong for 10 USD: EECH is like the best deal you'll ever get in a lifetime !
DCS: BS ... well let's just say I personally don't really like the kind of DRM it uses.
OTOH I can see why people rave on about DCS: judging by the many screen shots, video's and reviews I have seen/read BS must be the ultimate Helo sim ... especially visually.
So my conclusion: BOTH are winners, depending.


Edited by SimFan (04/01/10 06:15 AM)

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#2988710 - 04/03/10 11:44 AM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: SimFan]
Gr.Viper Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 618
Loc: Russia
Quote:
The human designing it can think about a lot of contingencies and can craft a story around the mission that just can't really be accomplished with the cookie cutter template of the EECH missions.

Mission generator does use genreic templates but once in a while a lot of flights doing their generic business cross their paths on such an incredible way that the players get a mission they remember for weeks.
I mean most of dynamic campaign missions are pure routine, but sometimes it comes up with something devious a human would not design deliberately. That's kinda awesome. Actually procedural generation of levels/missions/gameplay can become a big thing in the future IF people bother to code game worlds in more detail instead of releasing tons of "sandbox" titles with no depth.

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#2996156 - 04/16/10 01:48 PM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: BeachAV8R]
FokkerDVIII Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 987
I bought DCS but have already shelved it due to the fact there is no dynamic campaign.EECH is the better product.Other then a realistic flight model the world around black shark is scripted and mindless.I don't buy many sim's without the dynamic campaign option.I guess that's what I always revert back to Falcon 4.0(Free Falcon),EECH,and TAW.Much more fun IMHO.
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#2997123 - 04/18/10 07:05 AM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: FokkerDVIII]
flymar Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 35
DCS is great because of its' complexity. But the flight model is horrible. If that is real then I wonder how many pilots survives their flights. Iguess that must be something with my controller cause I don't believe it's so hard to pilot the shark.
CCEH is FUN, DCS:BS is STRUGGLE.
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#3572902 - 05/14/12 07:12 PM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: Vegas]
Reticuli Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 1809
Loc: Dayton, OH, USA
Both have excessive aerodynamic streamlining/weather-veining, especially below 50kts. I think Arneh resolved some of the yaw bounce in EECH, but it still gets really stiff too quickly and the values that control this in the ini don't work. Blackshark has maybe less, but a somewhat broken yaw damper it seems and even more bounce issues. You should be able to clear the yaw trim in both sims and be able to rotate the aircraft faster when you're not going super fast. They both perform at times like the air is twice as thick as it really is to the tail when in forward flight. You can actually get more accurate performance of the yaw in MSFS (aside from its extreme bounce in 2004/9 because of a broken damper), X-Plane (when you click the damper off momentarily like in real life), and (oddly enough) Comanche Gold with some GlovePIE scripting. Need to check Gunship!. Off the top of my head I think it might be in the good group in regards to the yaw. The pedals often called the most important flight control in conventional prop aircraft, fixed wing or rotorcraft.
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#3573705 - 05/16/12 05:46 AM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: Vegas]
HerrKaputt Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/10
Posts: 102
DCS is a very good simulator and a poor game. If you want realism above all else, DCS is the game software to get.

EECH is a good simulator and a good game. If you want a good balance of simulation and fun, with longevity (because of the dynamic campaign), get EECH. It's cheaper, too.


Even if the cost of EECH was $6 like EECH is I'd still prefer EECH.

Two side notes:
1) There are plans to have a DC in future versions of DCS. Judging by Eagle Dynamics's history so far, they will probably release the DC as a paid add-on which is compatible with all DCS modules. I would estimate that it will cost $20 to $40, but it's just speculation.
2) Previous posters have mentioned that you can create very immersive missions from the DCS mission editor. This is correct, but:
2a) ... you have very limited transfer between missions. For example, in most cases, if you destroy a tank platoon in one mission, it will be there again in the following mission. So you can create an immersive mission, but you still don't get an immersive campaign.
2b) ... go have a look at ED's website. There aren't that many user-made missions for Blackshark, and it's already 2-3 years old.


Edited by HerrKaputt (05/16/12 05:50 AM)

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#3573923 - 05/16/12 01:45 PM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: Vegas]
Avimimus Offline
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Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 3199
Loc: Canada
I was always frustrated by the lack of target diversity and the lack of infantry in EECH... another major issue is the enemy AI - helicopters typically will not attack you.

That said, my main frustration in EECH was the high pilot workload - the AI copilot simply wasn't quite good enough. So, one ends up having to fly, fight and fiddle with avoinics... which can take away some of the fun. This is several times worse in DCS:BS - where one has to be very fast with the cockpit switches if one is to maintain any situational awareness!

On top of that, DCS:BS makes rockets very frustrating to use (instead of them being a way to relax). However, for the experience of the flight model it is wonderful. The switchology can also be kinda-neat. My own personal preference would be for a version of DCS with a Civilian helicopter... or at least a third-line combat helicopter (ie. I wouldn't mind an Mi-8T for hunting insurgence with)...

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#3573936 - 05/16/12 02:10 PM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: Vegas]
guod Offline
Lifer

Registered: 09/29/00
Posts: 21658
LB2, BS/BS2, EECH... depends on what you're in the mood to do. Multiplayer-wise, EECH campaigns as co-op with comms is just amazing.

Avimimus, depending on which helo flight(s) are in the vicinity, the enemy copters are a lot more hungry and blood-thirsty in the latest allmods 1.14(1). Hinds not so much; Ka-50s are sneaky and lethal.
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#3574166 - 05/16/12 10:38 PM Re: EECH -vs.- Black Shark [Re: Vegas]
Reticuli Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 1809
Loc: Dayton, OH, USA
I guess my Saitek profiles make it very easy in EECH. I don't find the work load excessive unless I have auto CM off and accidentally screwed up a jammer mapping. My new X65F one is almost as good as the X52 profile, though I haven't yet bothered with the modes or engine startup on it. Not sure if I will. The flight model doesn't thrill me in EE, though. Lack of nuance doesn't help. The autopilot is a constant temptation just switch on and stop flying since the flying can put me to sleep. That's a bad sign. One of the code mods that was reversed actually made the AP realistic, so you had to babysit it to avoid kissing a mountain side. Maybe that's something that should be included again for when you're actually in the helo.

Blackshark only gets boring from the standpoint of the missions and the environment. The flight model in the yaw is too thick and wobbly still, but very nuanced overall. Very repetitive missions, though.

Longbow 2 is fantastic in most of the important areas, except I'm still having a little stability issues and I can't use the new rudder pedals I just bought. Still worth checking out and trying for people.

Seriously, if EECH's yaw weatherveining/streamlining effect could be toned down by 25% on all the helos (maybe 50% on the Comanche and Havok) and that butt ugly white blinding skyline fog could be darkened, it would be worth getting some multiplayer servers going. Getting low RPM stalls would be icing on the cake. A little bit of simplicity to the EECH flight model isn't so much an issue as the tail whipping the hell around all the time and just feeling so wrong. The AP is just as perfect in LB2, but the flying in that one is good enough to keep it off.

Blackshark I can tolerate overall in small doses until the mission repetition gets to me. Longbow 2 is intoxicating... until my next CTD. Comanche Gold with the GlovePIE stuff I do, well, pretty cool if you can get past the blocky but usable graphics... until the non-branching missions make it inherently repetitive as you try to get past the next "level/mission". I would probably enjoy CG multiplayer. At least LB2 has a level of variation that fools you into thinking it's dynamic, yet not so unstructured that it gets so big as to make your contribution pointless... kind of like Allied Force. Sometimes you get lost in big campaigns. The Janes system tends to work well for solo flying, while campaigns for me really need multiplayer.

O.k. BMS calls. (as the rotorheads look around and pretend they don't know me)

By the way, I have a crappy lil laptop off at school and simply tune EE waaay down, including all the new terrain, clouds, and dust off. 16bit color. 30-60fps usually. It is very scaleable. If you have a top machine it can do some great new visual things. And very stable as long as you're not doing lots of alt-tabs back and forth too frequently.


Edited by Reticuli (05/16/12 10:42 PM)
_________________________
The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

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X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles V14 http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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