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#2958723 - 02/15/10 04:22 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Ogami_musashi]  
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Uriah Offline
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Ogami, true, lag issues in MP is number 1. But for persons new to flight combat sims - they will never buy the game in any numbers if they can not see the other planes. People use to playing flight sims will, but not many people new to such games. They just can't get hooked on something that they can not do well at because they can not see things well. So keep it in mind. I do want ROF to be a great success.


Race you to the Mucky Duck!
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#2958924 - 02/15/10 10:38 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Rama]  
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haltux Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rama

This is wrong. The distance can be much greater, up to some kilometers. It depends on size of the objects, of the relative distance of the different objects, and of the observer training.
For exemple, a standard observer with a 6 arc second stereoscopic vision accuracy (which isn't big, trained peoples can have a much better stereroscipic vision accuracy), can see a minimum difference of depth of 100m at 500m distance.


OK, if you have two planes close to each others in your field of vision, you can say that one is closer than the other, if the difference is large enough, even at these long range.

If you have one plane and a uniform or blurry background, like a field or the sky, I can't see how one could possibly use stereoscopic vision to figure out whether the plane is at 500, 3000 of infinity. Or I wish someone could tell me how.

#2959158 - 02/16/10 11:11 AM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: haltux]  
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Rama Offline
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Originally Posted By: haltux
[quote=Rama]
If you have one plane and a uniform or blurry background, like a field or the sky, I can't see how one could possibly use stereoscopic vision to figure out whether the plane is at 500, 3000 of infinity. Or I wish someone could tell me how.


You can't use stereoscopic vision only to "compute" the absolute distance to a specific object, even at very close range (because the brain analysis of your stereoscopic vision don't work that way...).
Stereoscopic vision only helps to "sense" the relative distance to the observer of different objects (to give a "vision depth")

I probably didn't understood well your previous message... sorry for that.

#2959173 - 02/16/10 12:07 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Rama]  
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Tvrdi Offline
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"Some flight sims use a dot for planes in the distance that are too small to reasonably render. Either a dot or a sprite would do. The dot could grow larger until it is replaced with an appropriate 3d model, but there is no reason to have things *pop* into existence."


Once upon a time, A. Petrovich wrote: "Thank you all, guys, for your attention to FM"
#2959177 - 02/16/10 12:22 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Tvrdi]  
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Reflected Offline
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I just want to add:

"....regardless of the FOV"

Other than that: you're absolutely right.

#2959178 - 02/16/10 12:24 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Tvrdi]  
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Snuffy Offline
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Just my $0.02 though it probably won't contribute to the conversation.

Frankly, I'm surprized at the number of people that think things rendered on a computer screen in a virtual world should reflect what possibly may or may not be in a real world situation. (Not denying it can't be done, I'm just saying what one person's opinion is, is not necessarly another person's opinion.)

I'm also surprized at the number of people who insist on looking for "imagined flaws" or other things to take away the joy they may otherwise derive from something that is supposed to be entertainment.


Snuffy - Ted
#2959183 - 02/16/10 12:40 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Snuffy]  
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Catfish Offline
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Where the ocean meets the sky
Hello,
@Snuffy - maybe you are surprised because you have not seen what all has been there as a standard before RoF ?
When i want sheer entertainment i go for PS3, X-Box or whatever. When i want a real SIM i go PC.

Frankly, i wonder why the software industy has to invent the wheel again and again. Why not build up from a working, good, historically correct sim and improve bad aspects of an older sim, but keeping the good ideas?!

The 20-year old version of RedBaron II was more complete and thought-through than RoF is. Menu, "Museum" with data for all planes, single missions, dogfights, online fun with 100+ players, "Paint your own plane" etc. etc. included. And no object-pop-up. A realistic and dynamic campaign, tons of different missions and objectives, and - for the time - state of the art graphics - and all out-of-the-box.
Either we are spoiled or the industry has seriously lowered its standards - while demanding much more money for less.

Greetings,
Catfish

#2959256 - 02/16/10 03:36 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Tvrdi]  
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Sturm_Williger Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tvrdi
"Some flight sims use a dot for planes in the distance that are too small to reasonably render. Either a dot or a sprite would do. The dot could grow larger until it is replaced with an appropriate 3d model, but there is no reason to have things *pop* into existence."


Exactly my point - we're not asking for an aircraft to be rendered at long distances, or even to be able to tell if it's friendly or not, just give us some indication that there's something there. I can't understand how they can talk of a "slideshow" if the view distance is greather than 2500m - IL2 is ancient by computer standards and in it you can certainly see something out there further than 2500m away ( what, did the human eyeball evolve between the wars ? )

In a weird way, this reminds one of the arguments about Oleg's "big dots" in version 3.something... but at least there were dots. yep


"Another glass of your loathsome, vaguely beerish frozen swill, if you please."
#2959326 - 02/16/10 05:24 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Sturm_Williger]  
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Tvrdi Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sturm_Williger
Originally Posted By: Tvrdi
"Some flight sims use a dot for planes in the distance that are too small to reasonably render. Either a dot or a sprite would do. The dot could grow larger until it is replaced with an appropriate 3d model, but there is no reason to have things *pop* into existence."


Exactly my point - we're not asking for an aircraft to be rendered at long distances, or even to be able to tell if it's friendly or not, just give us some indication that there's something there. I can't understand how they can talk of a "slideshow" if the view distance is greather than 2500m - IL2 is ancient by computer standards and in it you can certainly see something out there further than 2500m away ( what, did the human eyeball evolve between the wars ? )

In a weird way, this reminds one of the arguments about Oleg's "big dots" in version 3.something... but at least there were dots. yep


because they dont know how to do it....this is their first project and apparently was too much for them to swallow...pitty because they had a promising sim....
we must be honest and say FM is really nice (has it flaws but nice and very good) DM is good but questionable in some areas (collisions on ex.).....graphics is nice (shimmering is there, yes)....and what is left? Performance issues for some ppl, lag on servers, alwayw online requirement (OK they will remove this), almost dead multiplayer.....

Last edited by Tvrdi; 02/16/10 05:26 PM.

Once upon a time, A. Petrovich wrote: "Thank you all, guys, for your attention to FM"
#2959333 - 02/16/10 05:47 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Tvrdi]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Ah, the IL-2 Great Dot War...I got my campaign badge, even though it came with a wound stripe (I was on the losing side). smile

RB and RB3D's single player was too predictable, IMHO; one could predict the flow of every one of them. Shoot down X planes. Get invited to join another squadron. Shoot down more. Get challenged to a one-on-one with an Ace (who always brought two wingmen!). Get promoted, paint your plane. Shoot down X more, get another invite.

Watch the same cutscenes over and over and over and over and over again. Get a medal. Skip the cutscene. Get another. Skip the cutscene. Sigh.

I abandoned the single player pretty darned quickly for multiplayer.

The fantastic allure of the squadron tracking elluded me. They're just bots. No matter how skilled they got they still got in the way most of the time.

I think folks are over-romaticizing Red Baron and Red Baron 3D. Excellent for their time, but in all honesty it wasn't though there was a lot of competition - being first has its rewards.

The hit box system for DM's was abysmal by today's standard, and to be honest had me pounding my fist on the table more than once. One could actually do more damage to the enemy by missing and striking in the air beyond the wingtips. There was no damage model for the fuselage at all. In AFM mode, shooting an aircraft's upper wing in the middle actually improved the enemy's FM.

This is why many that were excellent at RB3D did poorly initally when IL-2 came out. I remember flying with some of my squaddies who were feared in a RB3D server (while I was laughably poor) and smoking them. Why? Because I had long decided that rather than shooting at hit boxes and "gaming the game" I would aim at the actual airplane, while my counterparts had trained themselves to intentionally miss in order to hit and do the most damage.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#2959392 - 02/16/10 07:33 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Dart]  
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Ogami_musashi Offline
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Showing a plane is not just showing it; it means taking it into account into the scene.

This changes completely things as not only graphics (rasterization mainly) loads now include this plane but also and most, the physics (the DM which is the most consuming performance factor).


I think many people here and on forums speak about what neoqb's doing without knowing nothing about the structure of ROF and what neoqb's is currently doing.

In this very post, people complained about plane popping in except if they used zoom while in reality ROF doesn't make any difference between zoom in and zoom out; the planes are there form 2,5km distance on.

That why i posted, to correct; There're some problems in ROF that's for sure, and for sure this is the first simulator from neoqb but i see so many assertions coming from zero knowledge that do harm to the simulator.

Frankly, as jason stated, being with neoqb in beta test and co-working we see the HUGE amount of things WIP just to content people.

If only you could realize that because of this we cannot correct things in one day;

What appears to you as simple, is not necessarily that simple and moreover when we have another thing in the works we can't drop it.

I guess one good thing if it was possible would be to let people replay the first release version of ROF; probably they would better understand the work done so far.


As for PR; i've been with Eagle dynamics too; this is typical of cultural differences, but in the end...they do the work.

#2959397 - 02/16/10 07:40 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Dart]  
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Catfish Offline
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Hello Dart,
over-romanticizing, you are certainly right biggrin - but i still like the fuzz-free mission overviews when the particular mission ended, and the chalkboards, invitation to a dogfight ('twas a bit unrealistic, ok) - but all this made you feel like you were in a squadron, living in WW1, along with news films from the front (this is why i like the other sim which may not be named). But those tidbits are probably easy to do, and will maybe show up later (?) - at least i hope so.
Greetings,
Catfish

#2959436 - 02/16/10 08:34 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Ogami_musashi]  
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Ogami_musashi, I'd just like to clarify that when I talk about a desire for visible dots etc. I'm adding my 2 cents towards asking for such a feature.
I in no way intend to run down the work Neoqb are doing on the sim, I for one, enjoy it a lot. I can though, hope that one more voice on the topic moves it that little bit higher on the things-to-do list biggrin


"Another glass of your loathsome, vaguely beerish frozen swill, if you please."
#2959447 - 02/16/10 08:50 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Sturm_Williger]  
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Ogami_musashi Offline
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It was not directed against you, i mean, the dot proposals seem sensible to me.

What i wanted to underline is that when one complains it is not always that easy to distinguish between what we see, what is real and what are the solutions.

I don't take ROF as perfect at all; currently i think neoqb will have to find a solution for the MP lag because it is quite a problem for example.

But on other points, i see people complaining about ROF comparing it to other simulator yet they don't see when ROF is miles ahead of the same simulators in some other aspects.

For example the DM; yes the DM is not perfect, compared to the Aerodynamics models, the plane is composed of far less parts which necessarily brings situations where sometimes it is not realistic but hey rof the ONLY simulator to have skeletal animation system and thus the one with the greatest DM so far.

What in ROF result in an unrealistic loss of wing element would result in explosion in another simulator and that would be even less realistic!

#2959488 - 02/16/10 10:16 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Ogami_musashi]  
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Tvrdi Offline
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maybe our expectations were too big..regarding ROF.....


Once upon a time, A. Petrovich wrote: "Thank you all, guys, for your attention to FM"
#2959500 - 02/16/10 10:34 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Tvrdi]  
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We also looked at the dot proposal in BOBII when the same poster suggested it.

It would be a big performance impact on our large missions ( 100-200 A/C) as the work for one dot (or any dots) is about the same on the processor (the physics, dm, fm, conflict detection, AI processing, damage, etc.) as the work for the fully rendered A/C (assuming the video card is doing the heavy lifting for the rendering).

I think the dot request is fine and understood but all the impacts and trade offs must be understood as well and performance impacts are always a concern.


Intel I7 920 processor (2.66GHz, 8MB cache), 6GB DDR3 Triple Channel @1333MHz, 1.8GB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 295, Sound Blaster X-Fi PCI Sound Card, Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit , CH Fighter Stick & Pedals ,TrackIR4 Pro thanks to BobII crew.
#2959503 - 02/16/10 10:44 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Tvrdi]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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On expectations:

I do believe you are correct, sir!

Maybe that's why I enjoy the sim so much. I wasn't expecting an update of RB3D, a replacement for OFF, IL-2 with biplanes, or any other sort of mashup of other sims.

I just took it for what it was. More "let's see what they turn out" versus "how much better is it than Sim X."

Was I impressed by the beta? Yep. Was I perplexed that they put it out on the street when they did, considering the problems I was seeing in the beta? Absolutely. However, they had been holding out on the beta team in some areas, which was really weird but a pleasant suprise.

I was expecting a WWI flight sim that would be first and foremost a flight sim with a detailed FM and DM. We got that. I was expecting a halfway decent single player career mode and single missions. IMHO, we got that; then again, I've never been a big fan of squadron management stuff or a bunch of cutscenes. I was expecting a detailed mission builder that included triggers. We got that, in spades. Maybe too detailed! I was expecting multi-player netcode that was solid. It took a bit, but we got that. Coop mode, sure. Persistant servers, no. Weird.

I also knew that there was a lot of "diamond in the rough" going on. My review of the sim reflects that; the roughness makes it a WWI niche sim, where if it were smoothed out it would be a much broader flight sim magnet (like, say, Black Shark).

I think too often folks are judging the painting by the quality of penmanship in the artist's signature.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#2959520 - 02/16/10 11:18 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Dart]  
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Uriah Offline
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In BoBII I was able to change the icons to single charter of my choice. That helped a lot. I suspect the planes were already there and could be seen if I looked hard. But with the icon character I could see them much better. I suspect this kind of thing would not be a big hit on performance and likely be fairly easy to set up in ROF. If I am right it would add little to what Buddye wrote "It would be a big performance impact on our large missions ( 100-200 A/C) as the work for one dot (or any dots) is about the same on the processor (the physics, dm, fm, conflict detection, AI processing, damage, etc.) as the work for the fully rendered A/C (assuming the video card is doing the heavy lifting for the rendering)."


Race you to the Mucky Duck!
#2960258 - 02/18/10 11:46 AM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Uriah]  
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So i wonder how Il2 engine resolve these problem?

In Il2 there are also big multpilayer mission with even 64 or 100 players and i didnt notice any serious impact on performacne ? Actually visauly modeling planes and DOTs in Il2 is the best as i saw in flight simulator. There is still not such easy to spot enemy contacts but it is possible even at longer distance - 10 kms. Still planes are hard visible with terrain background and aslo in the dark colour of sky. There is really very accurate. Even of DOTs you have to always look around and enemy could always suprise you. These is what i need from combat flight simulator. Both possibility to find visualy enemy contacts from longer distance and also possiblility to use dark sky or ground to hide and suprise enemy.

No icons could give you such immersion. Icons and external view just kill immersion from such game.


Thats why ROF is very poor here as a real combat flight simulator.

If Neoqb will not improve these more like in old IL2 game ROF never will be full immersion combat flight simulator for me.

What i need it is good mulitiplayer where you could have a mission with your squad over front area, make patrol over it for search enemy planes or other targets, where you could visualy find them from longer distace, where you could have time to get good tatcic position ( using height and sun) and attack them with suprise. There wouldn't be any icons, map helps or external views. These is what WW1 combat flight simulator should have. Actually ROF is still far behind these.

#2960270 - 02/18/10 12:23 PM Re: Very difficult to see other aircraft [Re: Kwiatek]  
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Snuffy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kwiatek
... Thats why ROF is very poor here as a real combat flight simulator. ...


There's the kicker for me.

What I want to know is how many people do we have here on this forum or any forum who actually have real live "I flew in the great war" experience under their belts so that they have the right and the authority to make these kinds of statements and then determine whether what is taking place in a computer game is anywhere near what it would be like in real life.

All the accusations and blaming and finger pointing are done by people who, for all intensive purposes, have no actual combat flight experience to judge by.

And again, to compare ROF to any other flight sim is wrong. Each are/were designed and written by different groups of people with differing views and opinions as to what they feel is right.

Quit trying to find flaws with ROF and just enjoy it for what it is ... and quit having a #%&*$# fit about finding things to hate. It’s a game for Christ’s sake. Its not reality. It never will be.
You will never physically die in this game. (Well unless you give yourself a heart attack complaining about #%&*$# that doesn't exist anyways.)

Last edited by Snuffy; 02/18/10 12:26 PM.

Snuffy - Ted
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