Forums » SimHQ Community » Community Hall » Gee, this makes me feel old


Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
Hop to:
#2903723 - 11/18/09 02:02 PM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: Sauron]
Crane Hunter Online   screwy
Senior Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 3216
Loc: Vancouver B.C.
I have a question, I've long heard that the supposely worn out state of the DoD 1911 inventory was the main reason for its replacement by the Beretta, was this actually the case or an excuse?

Top
#2903853 - 11/18/09 06:12 PM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: Crane Hunter]
Skycat Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/02
Posts: 4728
Loc: Pennsylvania or Montana
My understanding is that the U.S. military converted from .45 caliber to 9mm pistols because the later ammunition type had become NATO's standard.

The original poster's comment of other soldiers being curious of the new Berettas reminded me of when we started using digital cameras at jobs in the early 1990s. Our first digital camera was a Kodak DCS 100, approx. $15,000 and while very revolutionary technology it was almost completely impossible to use in the field. That was replaced by a DCS 200 which was slightly better and a little cheaper at $10,000 ... for a 1.5 MP camera! The battery was internal, however, and it wasn't long before these cameras could no longer be recharged, so these became paperweights relatively fast.

Around 1995 we started using wierd looking cameras made by Polaroid, the PDC 2000 and PDC 3000. They looked like they were made for Batman. The PDC 3000 actually used a removable compact flash card, which was pretty slick at the time. Unfortunately, the recycle time between pictures was about 11 seconds so they were somewhat inconvenient to use at ceremonies; we continued to shoot with film and then scan the negatives with digital scanners.

Anyhow, what I remember is how curious and interested people were in our cameras and with digital imaging in general. The technology wasn't yet accessible to the average person. Our commanding officers liked to show off the capability to visitors and have us print pictures before the visitors left the building. Customers seemed to enjoy the novelty of digital portraiture once we made our studio fully digital.

Our final Kodak DCS camera, a 460 model, costed the Air Force $28,000 in 1996; it now sits in our display case outside our office as an archaic curiousity. (A blogger who recently bought one wrote to the dpreview.com forums: "In a wider sense it is hard to research the DCS 460 because it almost predates the World Wide Web, and of course the people who used it in 1995 have long since moved on. And life was very different back then, the people were very different." Hmmm, I don't feel so 'very different'?)
_________________________
Remove before flight

Top
#2904162 - 11/19/09 08:04 AM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: Skycat]
Hankmc Offline
Hotshot

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 8567
Loc: NJ USA
I would think part of the consideration in favor of the Beretta was a higher round capacity and the fact the hammer did not have to be cocked to be fired. The 1911 was a single action pistol and it carried 8 rounds. The Beretta could be fired with the hammer down and had a 15 round capacity.

Top
#2904167 - 11/19/09 08:11 AM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: Hankmc]
20mm Offline
Site Emeritus
Honorary Forums Manager
Sierra Hotel

Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 40009
Loc: Tucson AZ
I'm not sure how much the double v. single action part played, but I do believe the larger ammo capacity was a factor, as was the attempt to standardize with other NATO countries.

I don't have my copy of American Rifleman yet, but I wonder if it mentions what the future holds. I do recall that the Army was looking at testing some future replacement pistols.
_________________________
Pat Tillman (1976-2004):
4 years Arizona State University, graduated with high honors.
5 seasons National Football League player, Arizona Cardinals.
Forever United States Army Ranger.

Top
#2904193 - 11/19/09 08:51 AM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: 20mm]
Hankmc Offline
Hotshot

Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 8567
Loc: NJ USA
I guess we can get more opinions Tom but I would not think anyone would carry the .45 with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked, out of the question in my experience, so if you were to take it out of the holster quickly to use it you would have to operate the slide to put a round in the chamber and cock the hammer. A two handed operation.

I can't comment on the Army issue Beretta but the little .380 I have can have a round in the chamber and be de-cocked with the safety and be ready to fire by taking it off safe, a one handed operation. I might not carry it with a round chambered but in combat situations it might be the way to go.

Anyone here carry one in combat, What was the procedure?

Top
#2904203 - 11/19/09 09:06 AM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: Hankmc]
oldgrognard Online   content
Hotshot

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 7968
Loc: USA
In combat, I carried the 1911 with the magazine loaded, then rack the slide to chamber the first round, then remove magazine and put another round into the magazine, replace magazine. Then carry it uncocked but loaded. So all you had to do was thumb pull back the hammer and you were ready to go.
_________________________
Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

Top
#2904212 - 11/19/09 09:21 AM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: oldgrognard]
20mm Offline
Site Emeritus
Honorary Forums Manager
Sierra Hotel

Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 40009
Loc: Tucson AZ
Just an observation. But the 1911 has a grip safety, along with another safety. So you can't fire the weapon without having your hand around the grip. Right? Also, there are holsters that have a strap you can fit between the hammer and the firing pin. Pull the strap, pull the gun, ready to go.

Would I carry my 1911 C&L. No. I'm a cautious guy. I will never forget the time I came home from shooting my little 9mm Star semi auto and I dropped it on the carport floor. On the hammer. It was not loaded, nothing happened, but it scared the crap out of me. The damn thing was hammer down and pointed up at me. So yeah, I'm a cautious Nelly.

My Ruger P89 in the bedside table is loaded, but no round in the chamber and the magazine is out maybe half an inch. Wouldn't take me much time to stuff the mag back in and rack a round. I figure it's a fair trade off for safety and to give me time to think before I start making decisions about sending rounds down the hallway.
_________________________
Pat Tillman (1976-2004):
4 years Arizona State University, graduated with high honors.
5 seasons National Football League player, Arizona Cardinals.
Forever United States Army Ranger.

Top
#2904223 - 11/19/09 09:39 AM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: 20mm]
oldgrognard Online   content
Hotshot

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 7968
Loc: USA
The 1911 I have by the bed is same as I carried in combat - loaded, chambered, hammer down. Just one hand-thumb back the hammer. That 1911 has the Crimson trace red light. So the middle finger pressure will turn on the light. At night, in a dark room it is satisfactory not only as an aiming aid, but is effective as a minor flashlight. Added value is that put a red light on someone and they know you have them. One more chance before you pull the trigger.

Having a pistol unloaded and requiring use of two hands to ready is bad. It has to be as close to "fire" as you are able (physically and mentally). Training will give you the confidence to have it set right. Just like I would transition to hammer back and on safe when it looked more like it was going to be used. Then safety off when you knew you were going to use it.

When you need it- YOU NEED IT. You don't sort-of need it. There isn't a timeout while I get this ready. You will be semi-alert and at the same time pumped up. No situation for fumbling. And all the crap about unloaded or in a safe is a pipedream. If it is in a safe you won't have it. Children really complicate the decision making on where you keep it and how close to ready you go. Not having children makes my situation more manageable. I have a pistol ready to go in three rooms of my house. Bedroom, office and gunroom. The office actually has two. My heavy carry and my back-up/light carry. So in the grognard house there are 4 pistols and a 12 gauge S&W 3000 pump at the ready. Never far from one. When you need it you need it ; and once you have one it isn't a problem to have a couple. You have to be careful not to mix them though. When it is tight you don't need to be figuring out procedures. With the exception of my light/back-up, they are all the same ready.
_________________________
Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

Top
#2904268 - 11/19/09 10:43 AM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: oldgrognard]
Bill_Grant Online   cowboy
Senior Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 3368
Loc: Dallas, TX
"9mm's were invented by Europeans to annoy their neighbors."
Author unknown.

The US switched to comply with NATO standards.
_________________________
~Bill

Life is hard.
It's even harder when you're stupid.






Top
#2904296 - 11/19/09 11:21 AM Re: Gee, this makes me feel old [Re: Bill_Grant]
oldgrognard Online   content
Hotshot

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 7968
Loc: USA
Or as we liked to tease people when they asked about the 9mm versus the 45.

"they tell me the girls like them better"
_________________________
Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

Top
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
Hop to:


Forum Use Agreement | Privacy Statement | SimHQ Staff
Copyright 1997-2011, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.