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#2901584 - 11/15/09 08:33 PM
HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: VonPaulus]
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Phil S
Member
Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 512
Loc: Civilized California
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What Sr. VonPaulus said is essentially true. For the English, French and Italian allies of WWI, the entry of the United States in the war was a moral improvement. However....
By the spring and summer of 1917 the Central Powers had regained all lost territory (Brusilov Offensive) and were progressing through the Ukraine, Poland and BeloRussia. By the spring of 1918, Tsarist Russia, near politcal, social and economic death, signed a very punitive treaty (Brest Litovsk) with the Central Powers. This gave the Central Powers the freedom to transport logistically all troops and equipment to the west.
The West was in a late autumn stalemate following a difficult and near endless series of battles in southwest Belgium (Passacendale). France had not recovered from its army mutiny of the spring of 1917. France was a poor nation. England had virtually exhausted all replacements. England was bankrupt (mostly to America)and without human resource.
The Americans were new. Even if they did not, initially, truly believe in the "far away" cause or crusade and totally lacked any field combat experience anywhere, especially in Europe. They provided hope. They used French and British airplanes and transport, since they had none. Yet the Americans provided inspiration, good tactical generalship and above all a logistics genius that led to the defeat of the great gamble in March, 1918, the Hindenburg Offensive, which culiminated in August, and the collapse of the German army. Peace for the "War to End All Wars" was a throw of the dice (litterally), being on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month in the fourth year of the War. This crap game did not end until May 1945
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#2901607 - 11/15/09 09:31 PM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: 5555]
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Senior Member
Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 2993
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What Sr. VonPaulus said is essentially true. For the English, French and Italian allies of WWI, the entry of the United States in the war was a moral improvement. However....
By the spring and summer of 1917 the Central Powers had regained all lost territory (Brusilov Offensive) and were progressing through the Ukraine, Poland and BeloRussia. By the spring of 1918, Tsarist Russia, near politcal, social and economic death, signed a very punitive treaty (Brest Litovsk) with the Central Powers. This gave the Central Powers the freedom to transport logistically all troops and equipment to the west.
The West was in a late autumn stalemate following a difficult and near endless series of battles in southwest Belgium (Passacendale). France had not recovered from its army mutiny of the spring of 1917. France was a poor nation. England had virtually exhausted all replacements. England was bankrupt (mostly to America)and without human resource.
The Americans were new. Even if they did not, initially, truly believe in the "far away" cause or crusade and totally lacked any field combat experience anywhere, especially in Europe. They provided hope. They used French and British airplanes and transport, since they had none. Yet the Americans provided inspiration, good tactical generalship and above all a logistics genius that led to the defeat of the great gamble in March, 1918, the Hindenburg Offensive, which culiminated in August, and the collapse of the German army. Peace for the "War to End All Wars" was a throw of the dice (litterally), being on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month in the fourth year of the War. This crap game did not end until May 1945
Yes, but there were American aces in WWI. The Yanks must've had at least a bit of a positive effect on the war for the good guys, if some killed enough of the Hun to make ace.
Edited by Plainsman (11/15/09 09:32 PM)
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#2901685 - 11/16/09 02:22 AM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: Plainsman]
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Member
Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 217
Loc: North of England
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"Yes, but there were American aces in WWI. The Yanks must've had at least a bit of a positive effect on the war for the good guys, if some killed enough of the Hun to make ace."
Undoubtedly, the arrival of the Americans had a very beneficial effect on the morale of the Entente forces, and American pilots in decent aircraft were clearly successful in taking on the Germans. My point was simply that it is something of an inaccurate oversimplification of 1918 to indicate that it was the contribution of American ground forces that won the war. It's not commonly known - particularly in the UK, curiously enough - that the period from August 1918 to November 1918 was the most successful single 100 day period of fighting ever undertaken by the British Army (British, but notably Canadian and Australian by that time), as it finally put the hard-learned lessons of 1916 and 1917 to the best possible use as it beat back the German army to the point where both troops and generals could see that there was only one possible outcome.
It's worth reading 'Forgotten Victory' by Gary Sheffield, as well as Huw Strachan's masterly account of the period.
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#2901696 - 11/16/09 03:26 AM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: SimonC]
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Member
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 872
Loc: Where the ocean meets the sky
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Hi, England was certainly supported by the US since the start of the war - and the US would have also supported Germany before entering the war, but there was this blockade going on, preventing german ships to trade - the specially-built Trade-U-boat "Deutschland" was an idea to circumvent the blockade, but Germany would have needed a whole fleet of those. And President Wilson was not really considered as "neutral" even before he actually decided to send soldiers to the front. Wilson feared an early declaration of war might have lead to a civil war. It was only after this "Zimmermann-telegram", some proper propaganda efforts by the CPI and those "4-minuters", that the US could actually join the war. There were so many Irish and Germans in the US who had no special love for England, some even wanted to join the german army. Some state the US only joined the war, to make it possible for a later victorious England, to pay back its war debts. My opinion is that - while the US certainly helped with material, and some soldiers, the war itself was won by US material resources, and english soldiers, supported by millions of soldiers from England's colonies and the commonwealth, like India, Canada, and Australia - especially all those soldiers from India are too seldomly mentioned, but they had the highest casualties, and fought brave. The later "Gurkha" regiments in WW2 were not feared without a reason, by the axis. But i am also looking forward to the add-on, i only hope it does not take too long  Greetings, Catfish
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#2901715 - 11/16/09 04:15 AM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: Catfish]
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Member
Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 182
Loc: Portugal
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I think we're being here a little bias. I say we even being a Portuguese, because 95% of the source material I read is written by English historians and the other 5% by American historians.
I'm aware of the current thoughts about WW1, that were masterly explained by Hew Strachan in his book "The First World War". I know that by the end of the war the British Army was, if we can compare, what is today the US Army in terms of use of technology and tactic. I also recognize the importance of the sea blockade in strangling economically Germany.
But I must say this. All of that might wouldn't be enough to win the war if it wasn't the Russian sacrifice and the French "desperate" stubbornness. Don't forget Verdun and the first Marne battle, that surely have helped in influencing the outcome of the war.
I go further, in my humble opinion, Germany lost the war by themselves when they didn't carry out successfully the Schlieffen Plan.
This is already too much off-topic. Like when playing this sim I'm already taking myself away to the Great War period.
Over there. Spread the word. The Yanks are coming.
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#2901836 - 11/16/09 07:49 AM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: Plainsman]
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Member
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 480
Loc: Bradford, UK
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Yes, but there were American aces in WWI. The Yanks must've had at least a bit of a positive effect on the war for the good guys, if some killed enough of the Hun to make ace.
Don't forget as well the layfaette Squadrons, and other US Volunteer suadrons. Including many with the RFC/RAF - forerunners of the WW2 Eagle Squadrons. P.s. My tuppence on who won the war... It has been argued that it was the Royal Navy. Their dual duties were to safeguard Britains supply lines, and to deny Germany the vital trade that it too needed. Whilst you can debate the tactical victor of Jutland, the fact that the High Seas Fleet refused to engage the Home Fleet squadrons and never came back out shows it to be a Strategic victory the the Royal navy. Due to the naval blockade Germany in 1918 was pretty much out of food, fuel and ammunition. Four years of privation and starvation compounded by the knowledge that US goods were flowing into Fance and Britain even before the US joined in. The collapse of the home front was more important than the collapse on the Western Front, as new defense lines can be established, but an social and economical collapse is the end of it all. Germany following the end of the War was effectively engaged for the next few years in a low level civil war between left and right wing parties. Not that far removed from what Russia experienced in the post war years as well. We tend to forget all this in Britain as to used to 'we won and we went home' and cared not what troubles the Germans were undergoing.
Edited by Stuntie (11/16/09 07:49 AM)
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Stuntie.
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#2901854 - 11/16/09 08:07 AM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: Stuntie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 04/11/02
Posts: 3138
Loc: Keller, TX
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Interesting, how the announcement of the expansion pack turned into a debate on who actually won The First World War!
It's always a mistake, in my opinion, to start a debate, or argument, on who did more to win a war... this country or that country, this branch of the service or that branch of the service....etc.
No one service can do it by themselves. It's the combination of all, doing thier particular specialties, that does it.
The part of The Royal Navy can hardly be argued. The blockade made it difficult for Germany to carry on a prolonged war. But if not for the Army, The Kaiser could have overun all of Europe, and wouldn't have needed to worry about the blockade. If the Air Forces didn't gain control of the skies the armies would have been at the mercy of enemy bombers and observation planes. And so on and so on.
If you don't want to hear that the U.S. helped to win WW1, then how about we say that probably helped to shorten it by a year or so. Those new, fresh American divisions helped to break the stalemate that the war had fallen into. The war could not end until the armies got out of the trenches and started to maneuver.
The Yanks also came in to it just as the Germans were freeing up hundreds of thousands of troops that had been fighting on the eastern front. Good timing there! That could have been a disaster for France and England.
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#2902060 - 11/16/09 01:52 PM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: Pooch]
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Junior Member
Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Tennessee,USA
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I apologise to all of you who have either read , or replied to this post.
I made an error about how US ground forces contributed to the overall offensives during 1918, and thus helped stop the German advances late in the war. While it is true, the US did provide troops for the offensives, the Allies certainly had the Germans in a more defensive posture and they were fighting a defensive rather than offensive war. The Battle of Amiens solved that.
I made a fairly over simplified remake that alluded to the idea that it was the US Marines at Belleau Woods that helped stop the German advances.
It was never my intention to either disrespect, or reduce any contribution of any nations forces during this conflict. This "War To End All Wars", cost the nations of Europe, and the world, millions of lives and an entire generation of men and women in which to build their futures. The next war was to be decided by many of the veterans of this conflict and the effects of WW2 were to be felt throughout the rest of the 20th century.
I hope this clears up this discussion a little.
Sincerely, Kingkat
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#2902159 - 11/16/09 03:38 PM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: Kingkat]
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Member
Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 182
Loc: Portugal
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I doubt that there was anyone here that felt disrespected by your particular comment or anyone else commentary. This sim tend to attracts more mature people, and I for myself welcome some off-topic matter and some arguing. Besides I suppose, we are all getting excited with the coming of this expansion. 
Edited by VonPaulus (11/16/09 03:41 PM)
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#2906560 - 11/23/09 09:15 AM
Re: HAT IN THE RING: EXPANSION for OFF BH&H
[Re: VonPaulus]
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Member
Registered: 01/10/01
Posts: 2121
Loc: France
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Mmmhhh... sorry but...did the French fight against the Germans or not ? someone here wrote the word " Commonwealth" instead of "Entente"...seems History is relative to those who write it and in this case, to those who read it (same thing after all)...some of you would be interested in reading the (french) regimental or divisional diaries...
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