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#2900322 - 11/13/09 12:31 PM
Re: New Skin Voss 103/17 F1/DR1
[Re: Catfish]
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Member
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 1524
Loc: Newcastle Upon Tyne, England.
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Hello,
someone said a flat half turn would not be possible with a rotary, or better with this triplane, and it would always bank when applying rudder. This is wrong. There are numerous WW1 pilot's reports that most of the WW1 planes including rotaries did not change direction quickly, when using the ailerons alone - only additional rudder would really make them curve. Rudder alone did not make them bank much.
As well those light planes would swing their tail around in a second, even an inlined SE5a, or an Albatros, if heftily applying rudder only. No need for ailerons, and if the plane would bank a bit, it would be easy to counter this with very little aileron "input". Even a BE2c could almost fly sideways.
Also the Dr.I could fly almost sideways, if not for long; but for a long time at an angle of 45 degrees relatively to where its nose pointed. Remember the Dr.I has a very thick wing profile, and the full lift while flying straight will make the bird try to rise all the time, if not countered by pressing the stick forward. If you steal some lift by adding an angle to the flight path there is easily still enough lift to fly on. I do not own the RoF Dr.I yet, but if it is not possible to perform a flat (sic! without banking) turn with it, this is modelled wrong.
Aditionally Voss did not fly a Dr.I, but its test predecessor F1, with a stronger Bentley engine fitted, and being more manoeuverable than the later Dr.I. But if the later Dr.I was able to perform sideways flying, Voss' F1 certainly did.
The shooting of downed planes, and pilots. It was common also with english fliers to do this, especially Mannock who had a hate against all being german ("I hope he burnt all the way down.." " ... I Hope Kaiser Bill could hear him sizzle.." etc. etc.). Germany (but not England as i read) despised the use of incendiary ammunition if not carried for a balloon attack, and any british pilot downed and found with this ammunition had a hard time, if he had not a good explanation why. And what you forget is the excitement, adrenaline, seeing your friend being shot down by an enemy, that make you hate and maybe lose your temper, if for a short time (in most cases). So do not judge any pilot when you have no real combat experience.
That being said, if a downed pilot was supposed to ignite his own downed plane to not let it fall into enemy hands, it had to be avoided by all means, and he was to be shot - order on all sides. And things certainly got worse the longer the war went on, the sometimes occurring "chivalry" of 1914 to 16 was long gone.
Greetings, Catfish
P.S. @Gremlin - Voss had indeed a "borrowed" engine in his F1 triplane, and A. Fokker himself was not really fond about it - this is one of the few correct things in the "new" Red Baron film. I do not think it is an urban legend since i read this in Udet's as well as in anglo-saxon texts. Hi there Catfish. Whilst I know it certainly happened, I would dispute your assertion that it was "Commonplace" amongst 'English' pilots. It wasn't. The Scots, Welsh and Irish of SimHQ will no doubt get annoyed at reading that, they had amongst the best (and vindictive) pilots in the RFC. Mannock was vengeful and it is true he harboured hatred for Germans. He was also seemingly a troubled soul and a very complex character; in his diary entries he often pontificated about the morality of the war and wrote that he "felt like a murderer" when he reflected upon all the enemy pilots he had killed. Showing his contradictory nature, when told of the death of MVR and as other RAF pilots raised a toast, he is reported to have said "I hope the B*stard burned all the way down". He suffered badly from nerves, which deteriorated and would probably now be diagnosed as "Post Traumatic Stress", which may have contributed to his outbursts. I'd like to see your sources that say the use of incendiary ammunition was condoned by the 'English fliers' of the RFC and not the Germans. It was not. There was an unwritten "gentlemans agreement" between both sides not to use it against enemy aircraft, and while it may well have happened (I don't doubt it), it was certainly not commonplace or officially sanctioned/condoned. You are right in debunking the myth of Chivalry though, early stages yes, but as the war dragged on and attrition set in real hatred began to surface. Hows this for cold bloodedness? " My habit of attacking Huns dangling from their parachutes led to many arguments in the mess. Some officers, of the Eton and Sandhurst type, thought I was 'unsportsmanlike' to do it. Never having been to a public school, I was unhampered by such considerations of form. I just pointed out that there was a bloody war on, and that I intended to avenge my pals." Welsh RFC ace James Ira Thomas Jones (37 Victories). Cheers.
Edited by Biggles07 (11/13/09 12:37 PM) Edit Reason: I am NOT an animal, I am a HUMAN BEING!!!
_________________________
"I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals".
Sir Winston Churchill
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#2900324 - 11/13/09 12:34 PM
Re: New Skin Voss 103/17 F1/DR1
[Re: RedVonHammer]
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Member
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 798
Loc: Where the ocean meets the sky
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Hello von Hammer, just corrected the "Bentley", sorry Then you wrote that Wolff spared Rhys-Davis (b.t.w. is it Rhys-Davis, Davies or Davids ?), and i never heard of this before - now i found this: " ... Five other British pilots were shot down, including Rhys-Davids. He found himself with jammed guns in a shotup plane whose damaged engine suddenly quit. He was doubly fortunate. Kurt Wolff, the German pilot on his tail, pulled away from a sure kill and let him live. Rhys-Davids then managed a powerless dead stick landing safely behind British lines. ..." It is here: http://reference.findtarget.com/search/Arthur%20Rhys%20Davids/Is this really true, is there evidence ? Thanks and greetings, Catfish
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#2900330 - 11/13/09 12:45 PM
Re: New Skin Voss 103/17 F1/DR1
[Re: Biggles07]
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Member
Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 426
Loc: Norway
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Mannock was indeed not the cold blooded self centered murderer as many believes. He had his taste in music (Often played on instruments.) Talked with his green pilots giving advices and training, and was very much like any of the chaps in the same situation. As the war drags on, one obviously became troubled. All though used as an example on cold blooded fighter pilots (Some writers tend to get a bit fired up and exaggarate the truth a bit, especially when it goes for the high scoring aces.) And probably being a bit of a murderer so to speak, I`m not sure he was all that bad 
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#2900339 - 11/13/09 01:10 PM
Re: New Skin Voss 103/17 F1/DR1
[Re: Biggles07]
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Member
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 798
Loc: Where the ocean meets the sky
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Hello Biggles, thanks for making this clear. It was not my intention to denigrate any member of the RFC/RAF, it is just i mostly read german accounts (Jentsch, Udet etc.), and one-sided information has certainly always to be regarded with suspicion. Let me say i have nothing but admiration for anyone who flew or fought at all in this war, even if i think it was not worth it - other than WW2. "... The Scots, Welsh and Irish of SimHQ will no doubt get annoyed at reading that, they had amongst the best (and vindictive) pilots in the RFC. ..." Ah, let "them vindictive ones" come, i'll have a Laphroaig and then see 'em in RoF's virtual skies  " ... I'd like to see your sources that say the use of incendiary ammunition was condoned by the 'English fliers' of the RFC and not the Germans. It was not. There was an unwritten "gentlemans agreement" between both sides not to use it against enemy aircraft, and while it may well have happened (I don't doubt it), it was certainly not commonplace or officially sanctioned/condoned. ..." I would understand this agreement, after all it would have hurt all sides. However this is from Jentsch's "Als Jagdflieger im Feuer" - again to be regarded with suspicion, due to the time this edition was published (1938 !). Reading his texts you get the idea that this using of incendiary ammunition was more common in the RFC, than it was in the German Air Service. Will have to look for the exact passage. " ... My habit of attacking Huns dangling from their parachutes led to many arguments in the mess. Some officers, of the Eton and Sandhurst type, thought I was 'unsportsmanlike' to do it. Never having been to a public school, I was unhampered by such considerations of form. I just pointed out that there was a bloody war on, and that I intended to avenge my pals." Welsh ace James Ira Thomas Jones (37 Victories). ..." " ... Hows this for cold bloodedness? ..." "Taffy" Jones, well what can i say. From this point almost a hundred years later and as a virtual armchair warrior it sounds barbarian. But as said before I don't know how i would have acted, as a young impulsive man (and maybe even irish ahem) being bombarded with all kinds of propaganda, and seeing friends die in this "great" war. War isn't pretty. It is sometimes very strange to see contradictory behaviour in only one man, but in extreme situations you cannot judge them, for cold-bloodedness or whatever. From the small crumbs i read i only know that Mannock had been in Turkey when war broke out, and was very badly treated (tortured?) by the Turks - thus the hate for them, and Germany. He was only released because the Turks thought he would never be able to fight again. Thanks also for pointing out Mick's complex personality, guess i will have to read something more about McCudden, Mannock and others. Hard to come by in previous years, but with the internet .. Thanks and greetings to Newcastle (have been there before), Catfish
Edited by Catfish (11/13/09 01:16 PM)
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#2900401 - 11/13/09 03:01 PM
Re: New Skin Voss 103/17 F1/DR1
[Re: Catfish]
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Member
Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 426
Loc: Norway
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I think it is Davis, but yes it originates from an Osprey or Windsock book, I remember reading it once but I cannot remember the specific source the author got it from, but you are correct, one shouldnt reach to hasty conclusions even if it comes from a book, one would think that Wolff, having not so many kills himself, would try to get as many kills as possible so as to earn a reputation within the fighter squadron, never the less he did turn into a fine and aggressive squadron leader before his unfortunate demise.
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#2900425 - 11/13/09 03:31 PM
Re: New Skin Voss 103/17 F1/DR1
[Re: Catfish]
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Flight Instructor
Member
Registered: 07/11/09
Posts: 921
Loc: Oklahoma
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Hello,
someone said a flat half turn would not be possible with a rotary, or better with this triplane, and it would always bank when applying rudder. This is wrong. There are numerous WW1 pilot's reports that most of the WW1 planes including rotaries did not change direction quickly, when using the ailerons alone - only additional rudder would really make them curve. Rudder alone did not make them bank much.
As well those light planes would swing their tail around in a second, even an inlined SE5a, or an Albatros, if heftily applying rudder only. No need for ailerons, and if the plane would bank a bit, it would be easy to counter this with very little aileron "input". Even a BE2c could almost fly sideways.
Also the Dr.I could fly almost sideways, if not for long; but for a long time at an angle of 45 degrees relatively to where its nose pointed. Remember the Dr.I has a very thick wing profile, and the full lift while flying straight will make the bird try to rise all the time, if not countered by pressing the stick forward. If you steal some lift by adding an angle to the flight path there is easily still enough lift to fly on. I do not own the RoF Dr.I yet, but if it is not possible to perform a flat (sic! without banking) turn with it, this is modelled wrong in RoF.
I'm not saying planes can't perform a flat turn, it's just that it is a very inefficient way to turn. It creates a lot of unnecessary drag and is usually slow coming around, remember you have cross controls and are in a slip effectively. The main reason for having to use so much rudder in the early planes was because of the massive amount of adverse yaw. The article about the replica Dr1 that I posted stated that adverse yaw could be up to 30 degrees. That is if you left aileron in, your nose may swing up to 30 degrees right. That takes quite a bit of rudder to counter it.
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