Their was an Abl involved too, but I think they saw it off pretty quickly (Ill have to check my sources).

Yeah, the history channel tends to go a little over the top on some things, er maybe most things.

I wasn't trying to imply that Voss's story was a myth, simply that so much said about ww1 aviation is hard to back up with numbers.
So much of it is just from quotes of eyewitness accounts. Things aren't always as they appear and the mind and memory can play tricks on you in an excited and stressful situation.

Agree about the history channel, its difficult to recreate something as dynamic as a dogfight based on testimony from nearly 100 years ago and get it right.

There are many accounts though about the DR1's incredible agility from pilots of both sides. And the manuveurs described by the RFC pilots (all pretty much aces themselves, so experianced enough to spot the unusual) are consistant with other accounts of what how the plane could handle in the hands of a master. You can probably tell Voss is a hero of mine lol

But ill let McCudden have the final say

"The German pilot saw us and turned in a most disconcertingly quick manner, not a climbing nor Immelmann turn, but a sort of flat half spin. By now the German triplane was in the middle of our formation, and its handling was wonderful to behold. The pilot seemed to be firing at all of us simultaneously, and although I got behind him a second time, I could hardly stay there for a second. His movements were so quick and uncertain that none of us could hold him in sight at all for any decisive time.

I now got a good opportunity as he was coming towards me nose on, and slightly underneath, and had apparently not seen me. I dropped my nose, got him well in my sight, and pressed both triggers. As soon as I fired up came his nose at me, and I heard clack-clack-clack-clack, as his bullets passed close to me and through my wings. I distinctly noticed the red-yellow flashes from his parallel Spandau guns. As he flashed by me I caught a glimpse of a black head in the triplane with no hat on at all.

By this time a red-nosed Albatros Scout had arrived, and was apparently doing its best to guard the triplane's tail, and it was well handled too. The formation of six Albatros Scouts which we were going to attack at first stayed above us, and were prevented from diving on us by the arrival of a formation of Spads, whose leader apparently appreciated our position, and kept the six Albatroses otherwise engaged.

The triplane was still circling round in the midst of six S.E.'s, who were all firing at it as opportunity offered, and at one time I noted the triplane in the apex of a cone of tracer bullets from at least five machines simultaneously, and each machine had two guns. By now the fighting was very low and the red-nosed Albatros had gone down and out, but the triplane still remained. I had temporarily lost sight of the triplane whilst changing a drum of my Lewis gun, and when I next saw him he was very low, still being engaged by an S.E. marked I, the pilot being Rhys-Davids. I noticed that the triplane's movements were very erratic, and then I saw him go into a fairly steep dive and so I continued to watch, and then saw the triplane hit the ground and disappear into a thousand fragments, for it seemed to me that it literally went to powder.

Strange to say, I was the only pilot who witnessed the triplane crash, for even Rhys-Davids, who finally shot it down, did not see its end.

It was now quite late, so we flew home to the aerodrome, and as long as I live I shall never forget my admiration for that German pilot, who single-handed fought seven of us for ten minutes, and also put some bullets through all of our machines. His flying was wonderful, his courage magnificent, and in my opinion he is the bravest German airman whom it has been my privilege to see fight. "

Voss infamously strafed the injured crew of a two seater he had forced down in German-held territory. We should always be careful not to get into judging the actions of people acting in trying circumstances at this distance in time, but my admiration for him as a skilful pilot was rather dented when I read about that - it's akin to shooting at aircrew parachuting to the ground over terrotory where they would be captured anyway.

Cheers,

RD.

In a similar incedent, Ricthofen was fire upon by an observer in a downed plane. When he spoke to Voss about it Voss told him that he would of returned fire on the fellow.

My admiration for Voss is down to his piloting ability, and I dont tend to hold judgement over him morally. War is hell, and whilst there is no excuse for shooting an killing an injured helpless opponent its a practice that is as old as war itself.

No doubt in that the HC took a more liberal approach, and I agree on the escape thing, this was a fight to the death.

The SE5a has a v8, and if its just a few meters below you, it can still easily catch up, but they did zoom & boom exclusively through the first part of the fight though, but but remember that zoom & boom is about pouncing your opponent whilst his back is facing you, not diving down guns blazing and hoping to score some hits which is pretty much how I`d describe it.
True zoom & boom is difficult to achieve against a expertly flown triplane, which is the reason, I think, that they eventually split up and tried different tactics, some who run and hit, others zoom and boom.

I once had 2 se5a`s amd 1 spad 13 trying to zoom & boom me in RoF MP all the time until my game ctd`ed, they didnt score a single hit though..

I would imagine him to be able to fend of more attacks for a prolonged amount of time, despite fighting a squadron of aces.

All though ironically he was initially taken out by what we now know as a level flight deflection shot whilst trying to turn.

I stand by my statement though, Mccudden specifically said it was not a climbing turn (Conventional turn.) or Immelmann sort of turn, and specifically said it was a disconcertingly quick half flat spin, thats enough to have me convinced

I have noticed it's hard to fight against the dr1 in ROF, no matter what you do, it's always coming at you. You can be swooping down onto it's tail, then all of a sudden it's making a head on pass at you. And this is against the AI.

This is from Wikipedia, so I don't know how accurate it is


Here are my thoughts on the half flat turn/spin thing. For one thing, airplanes don't like to make flat/non banking turns. The next thing is that with the rotary engine, it's going to really try to pitch up or down on you if you just try to flip it around with the rudder.

According to the quote above, there were only two F1's flying, and they both were shot down within a month of being put into service. The pilot's flying against them probably were not used to flying against something that could turn so quickly. Also it's an unfamiliar enemy plane, which the characteristics are unknown.

Just in my experiences in ROF where you can be behind it, and then it will be making a head on pass against you could be mistaken for basically swapping ends. Even though it has banked and turned a 180, just very quickly.

Now if I'm flying against a new enemy plane, and it's somehow shooting holes in me and my five wingmen, I might end up making some extraordinary claims about it.

Was this flat half turn spin thing recorded at any other times throughout the F1-Dr1 history? This is the only time I have ever seen it mentioned. I haven't really looked for other examples though, this is just always the one brought up.

Where is WF2? She flew a replica, I would like to hear her take on it.

Actually:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQNivz8dpIc this one seems like the same kind of replica that WF2 flew. Sadly this piece of video evidence (In another thread on this forum.) was nicely denied, roughly by the words that a radial equipped replica is better able to do such a maneuver vs rotary equipped dr.1 of any sort.

If we go by the same logic, no pun or offence intended of course, the same would go for WF2`s first hand observations on the matter, no?

The evidence for the maneuver to be possible is:

Every one (Hopefully.) knows that a DR.1 is able to do a full 360 degree uncoordinated turn.

The DR.1 has a one piece rudder with no stabilizor, it has enormous amount of lift due to it`s 3 wings, and a rotary engine whose torque should be able to pull the dr.1 around.

There was an entire ace squadron as witnesses to the event.
A video of a replica (Albeit radial equipped.) almost pulling off the maneuver.

The arguments against, is fellow enthusiasts saying Mccudden, being fired up, misjudged what he saw due to a large number of factors (I was the first to present this theory in this very thread, but I still find it unlikely.). And the radial, not being a brutal, spinning mass, "presents" the airframe with a more stable kind of torque, thus making the maneuver possible.

Remember, MvR said that he did not perform aerobatics, and not even in dogfights at that from what I can understand, and discouraged every pilot in his JG from performing aerobatics as well, therefore he and most members of JG Richtofen (Who were also equipped with most of the DR.1 samples, other pilots luckily enough to get a DR.1, might not be of same.. Quality? as Voss) might therefore defrain from trying such a maneuver, in comparison to Voss on the other hand, who cared only for flying, was skilled at it, and is reported to be quite the wild one both in and out of an aircraft.

I am by absolutely no means a pilot or expert, but after all these sound arguments presented for and against, I still fail to see any reason why a late production DR.1 or early prototype for that matter, with the help of a good pilot, should not be able to pull off the speedy maneuver in question.

The only way I can see a true end to this is if Mikael Carlson trains alot with his UR.II equipped DR.1 and try to perform the maneuver, question is if he is as crazy as Voss, hehe, he certainly puts his skills to the test in some of the videos of his airborne DR.1, thats for sure!

Hello,

someone said a flat half turn would not be possible with a rotary, or better with this triplane, and it would always bank when applying rudder. This is wrong. There are numerous WW1 pilot's reports that most of the WW1 planes including rotaries did not change direction quickly, when using the ailerons alone - only additional rudder would really make them curve. Rudder alone did not make them bank much.

As well those light planes would swing their tail around in a second, even an inlined SE5a, or an Albatros, if heftily applying rudder only. No need for ailerons, and if the plane would bank a bit, it would be easy to counter this with very little aileron "input". Even a BE2c could almost fly sideways.

Also the Dr.I could fly almost sideways, if not for long; but for a long time at an angle of 45 degrees relatively to where its nose pointed. Remember the Dr.I has a very thick wing profile, and the full lift while flying straight will make the bird try to rise all the time, if not countered by pressing the stick forward. If you steal some lift by adding an angle to the flight path there is easily still enough lift to fly on. I do not own the RoF Dr.I yet, but if it is not possible to perform a flat (sic! without banking) turn with it, this is modelled wrong in RoF.

Aditionally Voss did not fly a Dr.I, but its test predecessor F1, with another [Bentley] (edited sorry, it just was not the Oberursel engine, thanks Hammer) engine fitted, and being more manoeuverable than the later Dr.I. But if the later Dr.I was able to perform sideways flying, Voss' F1 certainly did.


The shooting of downed planes, and pilots. It was common also with english fliers to do this, especially Mannock who had a hate against all being german ("I hope he burnt all the way down.." " ... I Hope Kaiser Bill could hear him sizzle.." etc. etc.). Germany (but not England as i read) despised the use of incendiary ammunition if not carried for a balloon attack, and any british pilot downed and found with this ammunition had a hard time, if he had not a good explanation why.
And what you forget is the excitement, adrenaline, seeing your friend being shot down by an enemy, that make you hate and maybe lose your temper, if for a short time (in most cases). So do not judge any pilot when you have no real combat experience.

That being said, if a downed pilot was supposed to ignite his own downed plane to not let it fall into enemy hands, it had to be avoided by all means, and he was to be shot - order on all sides. And things certainly got worse the longer the war went on, the sometimes occurring "chivalry" of 1914 to 16 was long gone.

Greetings,
Catfish

P.S. @Gremlin - Voss had indeed a "borrowed" engine in his F1 triplane, and A. Fokker himself was not really fond about it - this is one of the few correct things in the "new" Red Baron film. I do not think it is an urban legend since i read this in Udet's as well as in anglo-saxon texts.

According to the British investigation of the wreck of 103/17, the engine was a LeRhone 9J 110 hp engine, serial number T6247J. They were almost spot on with the movie in that regard, all though "Fokker" fitted the engine, not Voss.

But, BIG but, the UR.II 110hp was a direct clone of the LeRhone 9J engine, most parts being interchangeable.

Therefore the differences between 103/17 and the finished product (Dr.1.) should not make the two airplanes maneuverability any different in this perspective.


The DR.1 in RoF can fly almost stable at about 35-40 degrees sideways using full rudder and just about all available aileron/elevator input, but certainly does not come close to the aforementioned maneuver and the speed in which it was performed.

The Albatross someone mentioned earlier, (Flown by Karl Menckhoff.) is widely believed not to have entered the fight until the fight had progressed to the last stages.

Chivalry was a rare sight in late 1917 indeed! But it still occured, and obviously it was a small world, Kurt Wolff (Who`m himself died in a F.1) at a time not too much earlier prior to the Voss fight, had Arthur Rhys Davis and his battered crate in his very crosshairs, but let him go.