Check the Flash graphic on the homepage.

http://www.thrustmaster.com

I guess the Saitek and Logitech offerings have convinced them it's time to replace the Cougar?




The Jedi Master

Competition is a good thing

Hopefully TM will produce a stick that will build on the strengths of the Cougar while learning from past shortcomings. TM has finally embraced Hall effect sensors, now they need high quality gimbals and switch housings out of the box, not imported from Australia (Uber customer #055, right here). Software is great, hardware could be as good if they do it right the first time.

Ooh, does this mean that they're going to produce a split-throttle based on the A-10's this time?

(The stick wouldn't change much, though, as it's practically identical to the F-16 design they've used since the FLCS.)

It's also about damn time they brought out a successor to the ol' Cougar. Hopefully, they'll refine the software even further, as I find it second only to CH Products' astounding Control Manager. Perhaps they'll take the opportunity to regain the programmability lead here?

Finally, from their talk of Hall sensors, it will most likely be a traditional deflecting stick, unlike my FCC-modded Cougar or the upcoming Saitek X65F. If that's the case, will it have force-feedback, or will FFB within a HOTAS still remain the exclusive realm of Logitech?

P.S.: I hope to goodness that the paint on the Warthog stays on much better than the Cougar. The paint on mine is starting to peel off pretty badly, especially after wiping it down to get the gunk off that bare human hands leave after a bit of hard dogfighting. Also, if there are rotaries, can the electrical range be the full physical range with the electrical center right where the physical detent is this time?

The A-10C doesn't have a strain guages IRL, so the stick will most likely move. Whether they will use potentionometers or HS remains to be seen...



Most of these smaller fixes have been corrected on newer serial #'s of the HOTAS Cougar lineup. My main stick has a 18,000-serial and the paint is almost entirely worn off the FLCS handle down to bare metal from top to bottom on one side of the handle. I also have a 33,000-serial stick (NIB) and it has a completely different type of paint coating on it (matte instead of glossy finish) and I'd suspect it's more "peel resistant". The antenna elev rotary has its detent in the correct place, speed brake-, and dogfight switches are also aligned out of the box on my newer serial... I know for a fact that TM has made small corrections to the HC over the years (and between various serial batches), but exactly what they are I'm not sure of. These are just my own observations between several HC I own, and I can tell you for a fact that there are some very noticable differences between the 18,000-serial and the 33,000-serial.

Another one that comes to mind is the use of Allen screws to secure the stick handle on the shaft instead of Phillips head.

Whoa, had no idea there were refinements, my stick is #2785 ... no peeling paint though, I guess my sweat isn't as acidic as others'. If it makes you feel better paint wearing off metal controls is quite normal over time, the yokes in the DC-9s I used to fly had a lot of paint wear.

Really? My Cougar's serial is 14832, which could have something to do with it. I also have an annoying issue with unreliable microstick Y-axis response that I hope they've fixed by now

I've thought about picking up a brand new Cougar and transplanting my FCC-1 into its stick base to get rid of some of the little idiosynchranies, but then Logitech and Saitek started announcing new stuff...and now Thrustmaster has this.

Your comments on new Cougars fixing the issues that fed anti-TM fanboys in HOTAS flamewars of years past makes me want to do that...but not until I see just what the heck this HOTAS Warthog is. (I really would love to have a split-throttle, though it would take away from the authenticity factor in Falcon 4.0...but even in that same title, having dedicated engine control for F-15s and such would make it worth it.)

I just hope they'll use a better gimbal system and HALL sensors this time. Don't want to order multiple parts from all over the world to get this thing right.

These were in design well before they learned of the Saitek and Logitech offerings. (I know because I was there.) I can't release further details yet as I'm under contract and NDA, but the name pretty much gives it away as to what's coming.

Nutty

Thanks Nutty!

Something tells me if it wasn't for you there'd be no Cougar nor Warthog...

Is that so? Sounds like they're taking their time to make sure they get everything right so as to not have a repeat of the early Cougar issues. (Blown throttle pots with firmware flashes, misaligned speedbrake switches, paint problems, cheap metal, cheap pots, etc.)

So, new version of Foxy? Or essentially new hardware and the same software? I know CH types like to go on about how their software can do 128 (?) flags per mode but really, has anyone exhausted the Cougar's 48?

How good would it be if the throttle (presumably split) was compatible with the Cougar and available separately? Then I could keep my lovely NXT #094

Nice. Although I was thinking of the Saitek or Logitech to complement my Cougar, now there is a third potential newcommer to think about!

Bit like buses this isn't it. Wait around (for years) for something to come along and then 3 come along at once...!

Good timing with the upcoming DCS A10 sim...

Well, whether they were spurred on by rumors of competitors' offerings or not, there's no doubt the Cougar design is aging. I have an 18000 serial model that I bought 4 years ago, and even then the Cougar wasn't a new design...in other words I can't recall when it came out!
However, I will say without reservation I preferred my FLCS/TQS w/digital chips that I'd been using for several years (after I upgraded it from the stock version I'd been using since 1995) to the Cougar, but when I gave up my SB Audigy w/gameport I had no choice but to go USB as the gameport built onto my mobo was utter crap--spikes in every axis multiple times a second. I went with the Cougar for 2 reasons--I could plug in my RCS, and the FLCS digital profiles I'd been using were easily altered to the Cougar so I had minimal downtime over switching to the CH setup. The RCS meant I saved $100 over getting replacement pedals, too.

I need something fast as I'm getting spiking now and lots of irregularities, but I want to see what this Warthog is before I choose.

I take it, James, that the NDA means you can't even tell us when it will be announced, let alone when it will be on the market.



The Jedi Master

I have a feeling that, having been singularly disappointed with the G940 (not enough buttons and programming capability and made of...'plastic' *spit*) that this is going to be an immediate purchase...and I bet I've got it in pieces within an hour as well

Hopefully there are details soon. I'm going to upgrade in the near future, if it sounds like a fight I'll wait a bit longer. If we're teased and strung along I'll make a decision without it. We don't need specifics, but an overall feature list would be nice, many are clamoring for FFB options..

If you still are on Windows XP as I am why do you not just put in your SB Audigy (or get a cheap SB Live) and disable the soundcard in Device Manager and only use the gameport? Thats what I do and I'm still using my old thrusty FLCS/TQS w/digital chips!

Edit: Just wanted to add that there are workarounds to get the gameport working also on Vista even if M$ for some reason decided to make it obsolete! I don't know if the same driver will also work with Windows 7 but if you Google for "Gameport support pack + Daniel Kawakami" you probably will find out. Personally I'm staying with Windows XP Pro until a "must have sim" forces me to update to Windows 7 or above.

/KC

Just saw this and decided to hop on over to Frugalsworld for any gleaning of information...knowing that whatever is over there has already been read over here...anyway that place is down more than a hooker during fleet week.

What is the deal with it.

Back on subject though...isn't an A-10 throttle just like the old style that TM used for the WCS setup years ago?

I still have one of the sets here in a box and I don't think it was ever used.

The WCS' appearance was similar, but it was a single axis i.e. not split. I'm guessing this will be based on the A-10C's stick, not until we know more...

As for my Audigy, one, I don't know if I recall where it is and two, I don't think I have a free PCI slot! My X Fi and my NIC take 2 of them and my video card blocks a 3rd slot.
I suppose I could try that route, but I wish someone had told me about it 4 years ago before I bought this Cougar!!


The Jedi Master

New hardware, new software.



Just add some Cougar MFDs, or GoFlight panels, or RealSimulator hardware etc. if you want more buttons and do away with needing multiple flags to squeeze multiple functions onto one button. Much as I used to love squeezing and reading through various users' logical programming, I'm gettin' too old and lazy for it all these days. It's easier now for me to press a different button or flick a switch on a panel.


Cheers

Nutty

Good point.
I don't like to do "5 things" with the same joy button, this cause a mess in my brain.

In IL-2 I prefer assign functions to buttons in game GUI, cause I can chance any button assignment "in game".

Sokol1

Or, while in the buying mood you can buy one or more CH MFP's and set up a whole mess of systems to your liking.

I'm going to buy a second setup when SOW comes out, but if the innards look anything like the cougar when pics start coming out - forget it. I'll just get a second CH fighterstick setup.

If this is a hint that the new software isn't going to be as flexible as Foxy then I'm worried.

just do what i did...

get a ch combatstick, and mod a Suncom SFS throttle (with a the CH products joystick circuit board)...

I used to have a Suncom SFS Throttle myself, with full intent to mod it to USB.

...I never did. The main confusing part were those weird linear pots with only two pins rather than the usual three, not to mention figuring out how I'd ever manage to wire up the rest of the thing.

Hot damn Nutty that is great news!

I hope you make Foxy support the Cougar and the Split throttle simultaneously so those of us with modded NXT's will be able to use it. I'll buy the new stick just for the throttle.

We HAVE winner!!!

Nice job.

Now, how could I find myself one of those dual throttles???

It's a Suncom SFS Throttle. Suncom went out of business years ago, so you are going to have to look for a used one (if somebody has one new in the box, it will probably be priced just slightly lower than a Van Gogh painting).

The Suncom SFS throttle is an old analog game port and keyboard device. To make it into a USB device will not be trivial. There is an excellent (but old) thread on converting Suncom sticks and throttle to USB over in the X-Plane forums:
http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=27496

It is a 15 page thread, but if you want to undertake converting Suncom controllers to USB, there are ome real gems in there.

Of course, Hannibal's specific approach (using a board from a USB joystick) is proven to work, but you would probably still benefit from reading that thread. One item that was a bit surprising is that NONE of the buttons (switches) in the SFS throttle are seen by your computer as joystick buttons. They are all feeding into a keyboard emulator.

I'm still thinking about converting mine, but I'd probably use a Leo Bodnar board. With at least 3 major game controller manufacturers offering split throttle controllers now (Logitech), or in the near future (Saitek and Thrustmaster), it's getting a little less tempting to take that task on. Time will tell.

If only I saw that thread several years ago...

There would have been a key difference, however-since I had the SFS Throttle paired with a TM F-22 Pro at the time, I wanted to take the analog gameport passthrough on the SFS Throttle and pass it to the USB controller's X/Y axes and first four buttons so as to keep the whole setup under one DirectInput ID.

Also, there's no way I would've left keyboard emulation on the SFS itself-especially with those bottom two side switches limited to program switching. Everything on there would have been a DirectInput button, and I might have even considered changing the outer rocker to a proper rotary and adding another axis that way.

During the time I did have it, though, I do have to say that the SFS Throttle did feel pretty good in my hands and had a nice, smooth throw. Same could be said of Suncom's sticks-I found an F-15 Hawk at a thrift store a while back, and while it was an extremely basic stick, it felt like they got the stick movement feel just right. It was also very ergonomic overall. Too bad that even the top shelf Eagle/Talon sticks are missing a few switches from the real F-15 stick (paddle switch, second trigger detent, the "button" on the left side of the shaft should be three-way).

Oh, I know what they are and they are hard to come by, hence the question.

There was a time - before Leo's interface - where people didn't know what to do with them, and they actually sold for quite cheap.
Now, you're lucky if you can get your hands on them for a reasonable price.
I am familiar with that link, but thanks for posting it. I have missed some updates.
Granbichus did quite a nice job on that Suncom Eagle.

+ 1.
Despite the needs for the mods to improve the working of the Cougar ( also i'm a nxt user with Cub pilot hall sensors), the Cougar with foxy its still for me unreplaceble.
My question is with the rudder control. Will it comes with a rudder device, i very much doubt that, in that case will they release a new rudder control not usb that can be plugged to the Hoyas Cougar or Hotas Warthog?
I would like that in order to avoid using a usb port for an external rudder device, like i have to do now.

Are there any drawbacks to that?

I certainly hope they are using the heart technology - I have their cheap-o T-16000 and that 40 dollar stick is a more accurate (gunnery in IL2) stick when paired with my simpeds than my cougar ever was.

It almost rivals my CH fighterstick as far as getting bullets on the enemy - but the CH edges it out because of distinct X & Y axis gimbals reduce unintended control input.

This warthog needs better gimbals too. If anything, base it off gimbals you see in high end full ball bearing rc plane transmitters - much like CH but larger and stronger so we can extend the shaft if desired.

If bearings make end product over price point then toss bushing the user can upgrade with common bearing sizes. If anything, the mod community has shown people want higher quality components. The cougar looked high-end on the outside and was anything but that on the inside.

Four bearings in a 300/400 U$ stick don't have significant impact in cost.
Don't make sense today, after many issues with Cougar gimbal don't move to bearings use.
Logitech G940 have four in stick gimbal.

We need josyticks with excellent internal quality, not only with beautiful appearance.

Sokol1

Yea, now that I think about it, I agree. Bearings are so cheap these days it seems silly not to include them.

Looking at rc airplane radios for example, many people go through the trouble of voiding their warranty on a DX-7 ($220 radio) to replace gimbal bushings with a couple bucks worth of bearings.

Yes, using more usb ports than needed, and with so many usb thing today, sometime you start to get short on them. I dont have a usb hub, and will not get one neither .
Also, when i dont use the hotas i unplug it, with the rudder i dont have a choice that plug them in the back on the pc, and i can't unplug them easily.

I'm certainly expecting they have learned their lesson. They must have had thousands of warranty returns because of the poor quality pots and poor quality metal, that eventually caused major center play. Those two things were the biggest issues with Cougar.

I agree with everything here including the last part as most important. When you deal with cheap, low quality, Chinese metal forge operations then you get cheap, low quality Chinese goods. When you deal with good price point, good quality Chinese metal forge operations you still get cheap, low quality Chinese goods but you paid more for them.

The problem isn't that the Cougar was bad. For me it was a super piece of flight simulation gear that lasted quite a while for the money I paid when it was released. However it was a shot in the dark as to which type of metal the insides were going to be made from. For me mine must have been made on a great day where they paid more money to Joe Chinese metal chemist than the other days because it has worked great up until now. Now waiting on funds to make a U2Nxt purchase for my second Cougar or should I wait on the Warthog to see what they put inside the sucker. Funds are limited to one or the other and not both.

This is what I'm interested in, more specifically how far along in the development process are they, it seems a lot of people are offering their $.02 about gimbals/quality but this may be all moot points if the Warthog innards are already a done deal. Advertising has already begun, albeit in the early stages, not even a concept pic released yet. Remember the bare aluminum Cougar?

I know one thing for sure, if the gimbals look even remotely like the old ones - no sale.

Seriously, with all their resouces they should AT LEAST be able to match the quality and design of the modded gimbals that have been produced for the cougar by the community.

If they are using the Heart sensor, then they don't even need to worry about mounting pots or hall sensors to each axis and they can use a vastly better gimbal. If they come out with the same gimbal and just rip out the pots and stick the hall sensor under the shaft - that will be a clear sign they don't give a damn about giving us a quality product.

Already got a G940 to replace my wobbly mess of a Coguar.
So no sale for me.

I agree. The Gimbals better be better than the Crappy Coguar ones.
Big dead zone and enough wobble to make accurate gunnery next to impossible.
Any joystick in that price range that requires an expensive mod just to get it to work right is a farce.

I hope as well it has the twin throttles of a A10, not a single F-16 type one.
I also hope it's for an A10-C not the old A model. More butons and such like then.

A prototype image would be nice.
As would a projected release time.
We talking 'out for this Christmas' or 'spring 2020' ?

Interesting for the real life A-10C cockpit shot - since the SFS Throttle was originally replicated after the F-15, does that mean the real A-10 uses the same throttle and the stick design from a F-16 now? Certainly seems like it.

Thrustmaster are either lucky or clever given that DCS Warthog will be the most high-fidelity Jet sim built so far, and they are matching their unit to that sim.

A-10C stick reminder F-16 ones:



http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a299/u...it20A10_650.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a299/u...ck20a10_650.jpg

http://www.thewarthogpen.com/a-10c_files/pic3.JPG

http://www.thewarthogpen.com/a-10c_files/pic4.JPG

Sokol1

Once again; great information/pics from sokol1. Thanks for sharing these!
Regards,
MudPuppy

Looks like an F-15E Throttle combined with a F-16 stick.

Well the Warthog HOTAS is already halfway there if it is an F-16 stick.

Pretty much the F-15E throttle minus the antenna elevation wheel on the outboard side. In place of the CMD switch below the wheel on the F-15E there is a typical toggle switch which controls the master exterior lights/missile polarity. I don't believe that part has changed on the -C. Oh, and of course the afterburner finger-lifts are gone too from the -E throttle

Interesting, I'm sure it's not the first time it's ever been done, but the first time I notice an aircraft getting "off the shelf" controls from previous airframes.

Oh, and the one with Afterburners will be the A-10X

If those pictures are indicative of the final product other than in gimbals then count me out on this one. I can do better with my IJ upgraded Cougar and still be happy.