If you are interested, pls answer in this thread:

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic....0df3e90a#p34537

Those interested to make 3rd party apps (at least Patrick Wilson and Pakfront) should read Lefty's answer at the above link.

What do you think? If someone thinks has plenty of free time for this, please step in front as i don't absolutely want to be the representative of 'all 3rd party creators'. But if nobody else wants, i can act as the gateway between you and NeoQB.

Also, Lefty asks - what information do we exactly need for our 3rd party apps? Please prepare some information lists and let's say put them in this thread, and i'll pass them over. Or, if you have another proposals, i'm happy to hear them.

S!

Nice! Laser, you clearly have taken the best first steps on thrid party apps, so if you have the heart (stomach?) to take on the liason, I think you'll be just fine. Also, I think you have cred. with neoqb, your post got their attention.

Seems like we are all on agreement on the general concepts (a machine readable plane list with each release and a mission results text file), just need to work out the details. How about (using JSON format as an example, as it is easily extendable)

for plane info text file:



and then mission results, which, if we are asking for the moon, could list what was shot down, what waypoints were triggered and lots of other useful stuff

A-ha Also Lefty said we should justify why we need every information - so i suggest a kind of simple 'use case' or something like i'll describe below on my case.

I haven't thought yet at the format, i just saw they use INI files and CSVs so far, that's why i said INI. Anyway, the list of what should i need at this point, not sent yet, is something like this:

----------------------
Plane details:
----------------------
- available plane names (interesting to have details about paths as you show above)
WHY: clearly very useful, to have every available plane after each patch/update for airplane selection either for player or AI

- official skins for each plane, possible paths for un-official ones (to search) if more than one
WHY: to have automatically all skins available for selection for every plane in 3rd party apps

- (if possible) names of planes bought by the player only
WHY: Selection of planes for Player should be limited to what he/she bought
------------------------------
Mission results for campaigns:
------------------------------
- which objective(s) was/were successful, which one(s) failed
WHY: to know how to generate next mission (dynamically)

- status of each active object in game (killed - and by whom, damaged - by whom, landed, locations if movable object)
WHY: to know how to generate next mission (dynamically), or for pilot transfers, AI 'advancements', or to end the campaign if player was killed, or to modify location if base was captured etc.
------------------------------------
Mission loading and saving (parser):
------------------------------------
- list of every possible object/trigger etc. name and details for correct parsing - or ideally an SDK/API (the same from the official Mission Editor) :D, or any solution with similar outcome
WHY: to load/save correctly missions after RoF is updated, to generate valid missions with valid parameter values

I suggest we send something like this and ask about what common format they would like to use. What do you think?

Regards,
Gabi/Laser

I think that is right on.

LOL, here's his response:

"As I have promised here is the answer for your request.
Before we answer yes or no, first of all, let’s make it clear for both you and neoqb.
1). In a future we (neoqb) won’t be able to work or communicate with every 3rd party person, who is willing to create something (try to understand, there are few of us, and we are not huge company), so if you will agree to be a semi-official “3rd party face” for all the guys like you it’s will be better for both you and neoqb. And all future requests-proposals, ideas and 3rd party products must go to us only from you as a “3rd party face”. It will mean that no one else will post here the same things about 3rd party needs.
All 3rd party needs you will send from your personal E-Mail address to me lefty@neoqb.com
This will be a rule #1.
2). In order to understand can we do this or that for you each time we must have a step by step and very detailed explanation what exactly do you need and what exactly for?
This will be a rule #2.
3). All users claims about 3rd party products, compatibility with the game and stability of game will be not neoqb problems and our answers would be something like this: “Pls, go to Mr.Laser and let him do this for you”.
This will be a rule #3.
4). All communication between you and neoqb must be only in this tread: viewforum.php?f=112 and if not – no answers or help from neoqb.

If you agree with all the above, pls, do rule #2. I’ll be waiting your msg and neoqb is glad to help creative people.

Lefty-neoqb"


Lefty continually proves he (and neoqb) know nothing about community/customer/public relations.

And he's Neoqb's Community Relations guy! Mr. PR!

This is the guy who set up a Leader Board to score players in a sim in which multiplayer is screwed up, single player is screwed up and the campaigns are screwed up. A Leader Board is a good idea but the scores are pretty much meaningless because the sim is broken. Excuse me? What's the point? Re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

This is a sim that has said repeatedly that it will rely on third party developers to write content (such as missions and campaigns) but it doesn't want to communicate individually with developers (or any other customers).

No wonder this sim and that forum are both such a mess (That seems to be the real Rule #1 at Neoqb: If it ain't broke, break it!).

He makes it very clear he wants to deal with only ONE third party developer (you) and everything from every developer must go through you and you (not Neoqb) are at fault if stuff doesn't work.

WTF?

BTW, tell him to lose the shades; I don't trust people whose eyes I can't see

This says so much more about Rise of Flight and Neoqb's arrogant attitude than it does about 3rd Party developers.

Thanks for sharing, Laser -- err "3rd Party Face"!

This would be hilarious if it weren't so frigging sad.

I'd tell him to take his rules and, well, you know....

HT

Lefty's message may not be phrased in the most polite English, but I think you are misreading his motivatations. Yes, this seems like a bit draconian, but having been on his side of development I can understand why they want a single point-man and a well established, and narrow, chain of communication.

Software development is complicated and trying to pick out the good ideas and the serious developers from a forum is maddeningly hard. It can lead to much wasted effort on both sides. They've asked to deal with the one 3rd party developer who has actually proven himself. The rest of us are just noise as far as they are concerned.

Sure, I'd like it if I could make requests directly and expect a response, but I've not run into [m]any commercial software comapany that can support this workflow, not even ones where I'm paying yearly fees for support. For games, AGEOD is as close as it comes and they rely on a dedicated volunteer to herd the cats as well. Most companies are a wall of silence. At least neoqb has potentially opened a small window.

Well, I'm not a modder and I sincerely admire those with the skills to do it.

And, as you say, Laser has a "proven" product so it makes some sense that he is the go-between.

But I am a customer (bought every plane so far), this sim is a shambles (a real pity because the planes themselves are magnificent) and we hear nothing from the developers on if and when anything is going to be fixed.

In most of the flight sims I've flown in the past the developer had a PR guy (or sometimes did it himself) who addressed customer concerns in multiple forums. This guy acts more like a thug. He will only speak on his own forum and he rarely does even that and then he acts like Stalin. What, exactly, are they paying him for?

But, hey, if you modders can live with it, knock yourselves out!

HT

Um, why don't I think "the sim is broken," HotTom?

I mean, is it okay if I enjoy it, or not?

And why wouldn't we encourage neoqb to put up the Leader Board, considering that they had stated early on in development interviews that they were going to do so? Is adding things to the sim - even if they aren't core - a bad thing?

Lots to improve in RoF, but I'd hardly say the sim is "broken."

If someone thinks has plenty of free time for this, please step in front

I'm taking early retirement next year Laser, so if you need a hand with coordinating anything I'll be happy to help you in any way I can

Lefty's offer sounds admirable, bearing in mind that people with English as their second-language can sound a bit formal in text so reading between the lines is useful

It sounds as if neoqb are looking for a structure that will be useful to encourage third-party developers to get involved. Having a contact point is very useful to a company, much tidier than trying to keep track of many third-party developers. The neoqb team has set up the sim to be third-party developer friendly

Maybe they're learning how to structure things after setting up the forum. Or the Labyrinth as I think of it

They are flight-sim developers and engineers after all fundamentally, rather than business men and women

I can tell you that you have not seen anything yet, you are buying into the sim at just the right time, it's going to be big. Big and extremely beautiful.

I mean, is it okay if I enjoy it, or not?

Hold on to your hat Frank

Ming

Dart, it's fine if you enjoy such a limited amount of game play.

I do wish you would read my posts before you respond to them with your knee jerking so wildly, though.

I think a Leader Board is a very good idea but I do not think any kind of scoring in a sim in which virtually aspect of play doesn't work (is "broken") is pointless.

Repair the modes of play and, yes, I applaud a Leader Board.

I think I said that above but -- as you were with your ill-advised (read: disastrous) foray into the OFF Forum without ever having played OFF -- you're just hearing what you want to hear and responding to stuff that wasn't said.

So, yeah, if you are happy with the sim's game play the way it is, have a great time! But you won't have much company....

It's fine if you enjoy Multiplay by spending most of your time watching others fly as a spectator waiting for the mission to load and then being kicked back to the main screen for no understandable reason. If you find that enjoyable, have at it!

It's fine if you enjoy SP campaigns that are hopelessly historically incorrect and in which your AI wingmen always outnumber the enemy AI and your AI wingmen get most of the kills because of their sniper ability.

It's fine if you enjoy Single Player that has sniper AI that makes anything beyond 1 vs 1 impossible.

Clearly, you are very easily amused.

I expect a lot more in the settings in which I fly RoF's beautiful airplane models but I see NO signs that RoF is heading in that direction.

And unless people squeak their wheel here, there won't be any grease. As dense as those developers are, there may not be any grease anyway.

Eventually Neoqb may (or may not) "get it" that with so many customers expressing such great unhappiness with the product in such a public manner, Neoqb is losing huge numbers of potential sales.

And, if they ever realize what the complaints are costing them, Neoqb may (or may not) fix some of these problems.

So, yeah, if you're happy with the way things are, good on you.

I think you are in a very tiny minority, however.

Personally, I continue to see great potential in RoF but, increasingly, I am doubting it ever will be realized.

But, we'll all stay tuned and watch the next exciting chapter in "The Adventures of Neoqb," won't we?




HT

They didn't wait for the complaints to start to work on these issues... in fact they realized most of them before the game release...


If you stay around long enough, you'll realize how much your doubts are unfounded...

Stay around...

Honesty, honestly, and this is what i think, all of us should have more patient with this. Lefty already told that their programmers are 'working as dogs' on the product. BTW on the russian forums (use the google tools to automatically translate everything with one click) they say are aleady working on the 3rd version of RoF internally - dogfight mode and other stuff. Unless you have experience in programming industry, for sure it's easy to misunderstand the time scale needed. I'm not a fanboy, but i see how much time it take to make a SIMPLE thing, so i can imagine how it is to make a COMPLEX thing right. Do complain, by all means, it's your right, but don't pretend you know better (Sorry if i offend anyone, not my intention)

Laser,

I don't troll the Russian RoF Forums with Babelfish. If Lefty is giving assurances there that he isn't on the English version, that's just another symptom of Neoqb's lack of communication skills.

Hell, I rarely look through RoF's English forum because its organization (or lack thereof) remains so hopelessly confusing despite promises to simplify it. No one else seems to use it much, either, based on the very few number of posts.

In every other sim I've played in the past decade (OFF, Falcon 4.0 and Steel Beasts Pro for example), the developers talked to the community not only on their "official forum" but on others like SimHQ or Frugal and others.

In Steel Beasts, the PR guy is a German. But he's totally bilingual and he posts on lots of forums.

Ever see Lefty posting in here? Maybe I missed it....

Those other developers don't let every cat out of every bag or make promises they can't keep regarding specific changes on specific dates but they do let their communities know they hear us.

They may not agree with what everyone is saying, but there is at least an acknowledgement that the massage has been received: Maybe not a "Roger Wilco" but at least a "Roger."

I found Lefty's response to you quite disturbing and, sadly, quite typical.

Lefty virtually (no pun intended) slammed the door on working with any other modder.

If I were running a company and he were my PR guy, there would be skid marks on the sidewalk from me booting him out the door.

Yes, I assume they are working on fixes. But the last time they released a patch it screwed up more stuff than it corrected.

I will remain patient and I will continue to play RoF in the very limited manner that it allows. That includes your excellent generator, which at least allows me to make some fun 1 vs 1 missions.

But where I was once very hopeful about RoF's future, I am now very dubious.

A simple opening of channels of communication would make me feel more reassured about the sim's future.

I still see great potential in RoF but am not getting the assurances I would like that I'm being heard.

One of the many things I learned in politics is that most people don't want to hear a politician give a speech. They want the politician to listen to them and acknowledge they have heard the message.

Same thing in business.

S!

HT

Actaully, I'm not that upset at historically inaccuracy.

And Sorry, I've flown more missions where my campaign flight has been outnumbered than when we were on top. I've encountered friendly and enemy flights (and fights) to and from the objectives; and I seem to be doing okay on the kill front.

Then again, I don't expect to rack up 80 kills in ten missions. I think that's the paradox of all the "reality" hounds. They want realism, but then they want to have these unhistorical kill tallies.

Maybe you're not the Red Baron himself! There was only one, you know.



Again, you must be playing an entirely different sim than I am. Perhaps you should practice more.


[edit]


Tom, my reading comprehension skills are as good as your editing ones.

The OFF community can't handle one tenth of the truth about their sim's faults - not that it's stopped all the mud they've thrown at Rise of Flight. Odd how we have all sorts in the RoF forums that slag the sim (without ever having purchased it) and this just fine by OFF community standards, but to dare write one bit of criticism with their "perfect" sim and it's heresy.

Broken? One has to buy CFS3 to work OFF, making it a mod. Almost zero multiplayer. FM based on tables! Tables! Hello, 1995 called, they want their method of determining physics back!