If you are interested, pls answer in this thread:

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic....0df3e90a#p34537

Those interested to make 3rd party apps (at least Patrick Wilson and Pakfront) should read Lefty's answer at the above link.

What do you think? If someone thinks has plenty of free time for this, please step in front as i don't absolutely want to be the representative of 'all 3rd party creators'. But if nobody else wants, i can act as the gateway between you and NeoQB.

Also, Lefty asks - what information do we exactly need for our 3rd party apps? Please prepare some information lists and let's say put them in this thread, and i'll pass them over. Or, if you have another proposals, i'm happy to hear them.

S!

Nice! Laser, you clearly have taken the best first steps on thrid party apps, so if you have the heart (stomach?) to take on the liason, I think you'll be just fine. Also, I think you have cred. with neoqb, your post got their attention.

Seems like we are all on agreement on the general concepts (a machine readable plane list with each release and a mission results text file), just need to work out the details. How about (using JSON format as an example, as it is easily extendable)

for plane info text file:



and then mission results, which, if we are asking for the moon, could list what was shot down, what waypoints were triggered and lots of other useful stuff

A-ha Also Lefty said we should justify why we need every information - so i suggest a kind of simple 'use case' or something like i'll describe below on my case.

I haven't thought yet at the format, i just saw they use INI files and CSVs so far, that's why i said INI. Anyway, the list of what should i need at this point, not sent yet, is something like this:

----------------------
Plane details:
----------------------
- available plane names (interesting to have details about paths as you show above)
WHY: clearly very useful, to have every available plane after each patch/update for airplane selection either for player or AI

- official skins for each plane, possible paths for un-official ones (to search) if more than one
WHY: to have automatically all skins available for selection for every plane in 3rd party apps

- (if possible) names of planes bought by the player only
WHY: Selection of planes for Player should be limited to what he/she bought
------------------------------
Mission results for campaigns:
------------------------------
- which objective(s) was/were successful, which one(s) failed
WHY: to know how to generate next mission (dynamically)

- status of each active object in game (killed - and by whom, damaged - by whom, landed, locations if movable object)
WHY: to know how to generate next mission (dynamically), or for pilot transfers, AI 'advancements', or to end the campaign if player was killed, or to modify location if base was captured etc.
------------------------------------
Mission loading and saving (parser):
------------------------------------
- list of every possible object/trigger etc. name and details for correct parsing - or ideally an SDK/API (the same from the official Mission Editor) :D, or any solution with similar outcome
WHY: to load/save correctly missions after RoF is updated, to generate valid missions with valid parameter values

I suggest we send something like this and ask about what common format they would like to use. What do you think?

Regards,
Gabi/Laser

I think that is right on.

LOL, here's his response:

"As I have promised here is the answer for your request.
Before we answer yes or no, first of all, let’s make it clear for both you and neoqb.
1). In a future we (neoqb) won’t be able to work or communicate with every 3rd party person, who is willing to create something (try to understand, there are few of us, and we are not huge company), so if you will agree to be a semi-official “3rd party face” for all the guys like you it’s will be better for both you and neoqb. And all future requests-proposals, ideas and 3rd party products must go to us only from you as a “3rd party face”. It will mean that no one else will post here the same things about 3rd party needs.
All 3rd party needs you will send from your personal E-Mail address to me lefty@neoqb.com
This will be a rule #1.
2). In order to understand can we do this or that for you each time we must have a step by step and very detailed explanation what exactly do you need and what exactly for?
This will be a rule #2.
3). All users claims about 3rd party products, compatibility with the game and stability of game will be not neoqb problems and our answers would be something like this: “Pls, go to Mr.Laser and let him do this for you”.
This will be a rule #3.
4). All communication between you and neoqb must be only in this tread: viewforum.php?f=112 and if not – no answers or help from neoqb.

If you agree with all the above, pls, do rule #2. I’ll be waiting your msg and neoqb is glad to help creative people.

Lefty-neoqb"


Lefty continually proves he (and neoqb) know nothing about community/customer/public relations.

And he's Neoqb's Community Relations guy! Mr. PR!

This is the guy who set up a Leader Board to score players in a sim in which multiplayer is screwed up, single player is screwed up and the campaigns are screwed up. A Leader Board is a good idea but the scores are pretty much meaningless because the sim is broken. Excuse me? What's the point? Re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

This is a sim that has said repeatedly that it will rely on third party developers to write content (such as missions and campaigns) but it doesn't want to communicate individually with developers (or any other customers).

No wonder this sim and that forum are both such a mess (That seems to be the real Rule #1 at Neoqb: If it ain't broke, break it!).

He makes it very clear he wants to deal with only ONE third party developer (you) and everything from every developer must go through you and you (not Neoqb) are at fault if stuff doesn't work.

WTF?

BTW, tell him to lose the shades; I don't trust people whose eyes I can't see

This says so much more about Rise of Flight and Neoqb's arrogant attitude than it does about 3rd Party developers.

Thanks for sharing, Laser -- err "3rd Party Face"!

This would be hilarious if it weren't so frigging sad.

I'd tell him to take his rules and, well, you know....

HT

Lefty's message may not be phrased in the most polite English, but I think you are misreading his motivatations. Yes, this seems like a bit draconian, but having been on his side of development I can understand why they want a single point-man and a well established, and narrow, chain of communication.

Software development is complicated and trying to pick out the good ideas and the serious developers from a forum is maddeningly hard. It can lead to much wasted effort on both sides. They've asked to deal with the one 3rd party developer who has actually proven himself. The rest of us are just noise as far as they are concerned.

Sure, I'd like it if I could make requests directly and expect a response, but I've not run into [m]any commercial software comapany that can support this workflow, not even ones where I'm paying yearly fees for support. For games, AGEOD is as close as it comes and they rely on a dedicated volunteer to herd the cats as well. Most companies are a wall of silence. At least neoqb has potentially opened a small window.

Well, I'm not a modder and I sincerely admire those with the skills to do it.

And, as you say, Laser has a "proven" product so it makes some sense that he is the go-between.

But I am a customer (bought every plane so far), this sim is a shambles (a real pity because the planes themselves are magnificent) and we hear nothing from the developers on if and when anything is going to be fixed.

In most of the flight sims I've flown in the past the developer had a PR guy (or sometimes did it himself) who addressed customer concerns in multiple forums. This guy acts more like a thug. He will only speak on his own forum and he rarely does even that and then he acts like Stalin. What, exactly, are they paying him for?

But, hey, if you modders can live with it, knock yourselves out!

HT

Um, why don't I think "the sim is broken," HotTom?

I mean, is it okay if I enjoy it, or not?

And why wouldn't we encourage neoqb to put up the Leader Board, considering that they had stated early on in development interviews that they were going to do so? Is adding things to the sim - even if they aren't core - a bad thing?

Lots to improve in RoF, but I'd hardly say the sim is "broken."

If someone thinks has plenty of free time for this, please step in front

I'm taking early retirement next year Laser, so if you need a hand with coordinating anything I'll be happy to help you in any way I can

Lefty's offer sounds admirable, bearing in mind that people with English as their second-language can sound a bit formal in text so reading between the lines is useful

It sounds as if neoqb are looking for a structure that will be useful to encourage third-party developers to get involved. Having a contact point is very useful to a company, much tidier than trying to keep track of many third-party developers. The neoqb team has set up the sim to be third-party developer friendly

Maybe they're learning how to structure things after setting up the forum. Or the Labyrinth as I think of it

They are flight-sim developers and engineers after all fundamentally, rather than business men and women

I can tell you that you have not seen anything yet, you are buying into the sim at just the right time, it's going to be big. Big and extremely beautiful.

I mean, is it okay if I enjoy it, or not?

Hold on to your hat Frank

Ming