Article here:

http://military-entertainment.military.c...=soldiertech.nl

v6,
boNes

I disagree 100% that his death didn't mean anything. And that's all I'm going to say about this.

I'm with 20mm.

I'm with you too.

I walk talk about the anger that was welling in me.

I contend that that description is more apt for this book.

I find that hard to disagree with, although I won't weigh in on the existence of Karma.

To me, what Pat Tillman was about is doing what he thought was right. He turned down millions of dollars to do what he felt was his duty. It's about a man staying true to himself. I will respect that every day of the week.

S!

His "death" may have been meaningless, but his service was not. People die everyday, it's expected. But it's what you do just prior to your death that has meaning. No one glorifes the death of a soldier. What they glorify is the service, what he did prior to death. Like a soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his buddies - his death was meaningless, but his act was not. The author must be a buffoon not to understand this. If this is a glimpse of his depth of understanding then maybe his book isn't worth reading.

The author had one sentence right:



He is dead wrong on the rest.

That picture of Pat is menacing. I certainly would not want to be on the opposition and meet him on the battlefield!

v6,
boNes

Couldn't have said it better myself and its exactly how I feel about this.

S!

I agree with this though, I would like to restate sentence number two with "It's punctuated by pointless deaths and misery."

There are many ways to express oneself through words. And if one's an experienced author I'd bet there more than a dozen ways to restate "didn't mean anything." in reference to someone's death. Unless, he meant it to spark some sort of controversy to gain publicity.

It's just my surmise but it feels like there could be a valid message the author is trying to convey but it got cluttered with such lack of finesse or class.

I don't know Pat tillman till this thread but the quote below piqued my interest.



Kinda weird though, saying someone's death means nothing and you get some info that the guy's family was behind the book? My search-fu was not enough to dig up Pat's immediate family's involvement with the book but I did came across Pat's girlfriend being responsible for the author's access to Pat's journals.

And d*mn, I came up with a ton of controversies to wade into, from his mother's interviews, and books... to the cover ups to the... hearings to the...

So much issues and controversies the book potentially covers and the article's summary of all these is "Krakauer Says Pat Tillman's Death 'Didn't Mean Anything'"? WTF?

I get what you're saying, but I think it's important to look at this quote from Krakauer in the context of the original WSJ interview.



While I think Krakauer could have articulated it better, I take it to mean that Tillman made an obviously selfless decision to turn from a very lucrative career as a professional athlete. And despite his sacrifices, the tragic circumstances of his death, and the sacrifices of everyone else in the ISAF coalition - soldiers, diplomats, NGOs, all of them - a look at Afghanistan today suggests that not much has changed.

Looking at the corruption in the Karzai government and the ANP, the near-exponential growth in the rate of coalition combat deaths, the legalization of rape earlier this summer, and the ridiculously low turnout in last month's sham of an election, it's difficult to challenge that.

I consider Pat Tillman a hero. I only have 2 men that have earned that title. Him and Chuck Yeager.

His is the only football jersey I have ever worn besides my own.

Now, I am going to reserve my final judgment until after I read this book (my mother in law bought it, I am going to borrow it from her) but, I get the feeling that this man respects pat Tillman at least as much as I do.

I think he meant that Pat deserved better considering how selfless he was. It is a shame he lost his life to his own troops. If he had to die, he deserved the glory of taking some of the enemy out in the fight that took his life.

At least that is how I feel about it. Friendly fire is always a terrible thing but, when you consider how selfless Pat was, it makes it all the more terrible that his life was "wasted" in a sense.

As Patton said, you don't win wars by dying for your country. Well, you certainly don't win them by falling to your own troops fire. You win them by killing your enemy. Pat left football to fight in a war he believed in.

So, in the grand scheme of things, did his death matter? Of course it did. Pat became yet another of the long list of heroes that have laid their lives down for this country.

However, in terms of the fight against AQ, no... the loss of his life was a waste.

He deserved better.

Every war death is meaningless, they are numbers to be acounted for, the actions and will behind the men who fall is not.

Can anyone enlight me on the multimillion dolar ? are Us Rangers millionaries ?

Pat was a professional athlete and walked away from millions of dollars to become an enlisted soldier because of 9/11.

Hey Marshall... back me up here...


Dude... you KNOW you are wrong when you have ME quoting the bible...


"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

Tillman was also not your typical rah rah rah type- originally from the liberal San Francisco Bay Area, he apparently expressed beliefs not in line with the populism at that time either, particularly as it concerned the Iraq war.

wow, talk about taken out of context. If you saw his interview on the Daily Show he couldn't praise the guy enough. http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/250803/wed-september-30-2009-jon-krakauer

Maybe people should read the whole book instead of making assumptions from single paragraphs

Surely this has to be taken out of context.

GJ Chris.

Consider that everyone who dies in service for their country gave up something better to do so. What really made Pat Tillman different from any of these fine men and women? They were future doctors, farmers, computer engineers, pilots, mechanics and fathers and mothers. Is a successful football career that much more significant?

They are all heroes.

True, but Pat is an exception whose service and sacrifice needs to be illuminated. He would certainly not want to be singled out, but it's natural for the common layperson such as ourselves to do so. You don't see too many Hollywood types sacrificing their movie careers to serve in Iraq/Afghan.

honestly, whose death does? it's their life that counts.

It is SO easy to just carry on a discourse of quotes without context, but reality IS complex. He said, he said, rah-rah-rah... Gut-feel reactions are just that, something that doesn't really spring from the brain.

I do not think that is true at all. Some people look to the service as a way to elevate themselves out of a life of hardship, let alone get anywhere near to the type of life that Pat had.




In this case, it's not about the potential contribution to society, it's about the intestinal fortitude that it takes to walk away from a life of exceptional privilege to that of a grunt.

I REALLY have to explain this?



No argument there

So Mike Monsoor's death was meaningless? There is no value in the actions that sacrifice one life to save others?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_A._Monsoor

This is turning into one of those threads that makes me hate the current events forum...

EDIT: And it's not even in the current events forum

How is this relevant? Are you saying no one here thought out there argument?

You know, regardless of what Tillman's thoughts were on the war itself, the guy obviously thought it was important, otherwise he'd never have done what he did.

And there is a point in saying his death didn't mean much. When we go, we're not much more than a small pebble being tossed into a lake. We make ripples for a little while, but they eventually fade.

My Dad was Navy and I grew up a Navy brat. I went to a few funerals as a kid and memories faded fast. I know that when I'm gone, the people who counted in my life will be the ones that miss me. Everyone else in the world is going to be largely unconcerned about my passing.

But too many focus on the death and not the exemplary life that was lived. Tillman's life was an inspiration, his death a tragedy. The life he lived is what people should be thinking about. "Could I have done what he did? Could I have made the same decision?"

Well, could you? Could you have given up millions of dollars for a life of service? When I think of Tillman's sacrifice, those are the things on my mind. And those decisions he made while was alive are what fill me with awe.

pfunk

Tillman's death was pretty much by meaningless by definition - it was an accident (perhaps murder) that shouldn't have happened. That doesn't mean that his life was meaningless.

This is true, but some choices one makes in life leads to their death. Those choices can make one live on after their death.

And now to be a little macabre. In Canada we have a hero named Terry Fox. He had lost most of one leg to cancer and to raise awareness he decided to run across Canada. At the time, such things were very unheard of. He didn't make it. Approximately half-way across Canada, in Thunder Bay, Ontario he had to stop as Cancer had spread to his lungs. He died just prior to turning 23. His name is honoured everywhere. It adorns schools, streets, even a ship. There are commemorative coins that have also been released in his honour. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I'm not sure he would have been so honoured had he completed his marathon and lived. The choices one makes in life which are in some small part tied with their premature death, gives that person a life that will exceed any normal lifespan. Each year in September, thousands run to raise money for cancer research. Thousands who would not have, money that would not have been raised if not for his "sacrifice."

How one lives can dictate their fame or recognition. But the circumstances of their death and how that tied in with choices they made in life can also greatly contribute. I can serve - if nothing else - as mere inspiration for others who may go on to do even greater things. Butterfly in the rain forest effect.

The most detailed account I read about the incident was in the SI article about it. I would not disagree with negligent homicide - the guy on the 50 was scared to death and would not stop shooting - but, you think it may have been intentional?

Didn't mean anything? Are they kidding me?! I'm sorry, I gatta throw the BS FLAG!

If more people were to Live It Like Pat <-- CLICK this world would be a much better place. Nuff said.

I recall an article from not long ago saying that the army doctors who did the autopsy had suggested he was killed intentionally because of the spacing of the shots that killed him, but that was kept quiet in the lies/coverup surrounding his death. IIRC his family has also mentioned suspecting that it was intentional. I'm not sure what the motive or whatever was supposed to be though. Will try to find the article again.

Edit-
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003617692

tell it as it is, he went out there saw the curruption and illegal nature of it all, started writing a heap of contentious anti war letters to his brother I believe, made it well aware the moment he got back to us soil he was going to do every thing in his power against the "war".

He got shot so many times I heard it was almost impossible to id him and that was after he hid behind some cover shouting, "you idiots dont shoot me im pat tillman".



some one post his letters home..

I did not hear about these findings that he was hit from anywhere between 10-35 feet. I thought the engagement range was so far that the group with the Humvee mounted M2 could not see that US troops were being fired on.

Very disturbing. This one hurts.

Piggy back that on the story this am that 8 US troops were killed at a base that the US was planning on abandoning and... I think I will hide away from anymore news or current events for the rest of the weekend... too sad.

So, I just finished the book. It really could have been titled "Bush's GWOT is a friendly fire frag fest". It covered, in great detail, many of the friendly fore incidents from Iraq and Afghanistan. More horrific then Tillman's case is the case of the A-10s that shot up Marine AMTRACS in Nasiriya... good lord that was awful. One guy there survived an A-10 attack in GW1 only to be subjected to it AGAIN!

And, in a cruel bit of irony, it was actually an Army officer that said Pat's death was meaningless, not the author...

"You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing and now he is no more"

- Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Kauzlarich


And, after reading the story, no, I do not believe Pat was murdered.

The question as to whether NFL-hero Pat Tillman was deliberately murdered has raised its ugly head once more, as it is revealed that he had turned against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

An NFL hero who was highly regarded by so many Americans simply could not be allowed to go back home to publicize his beliefs. After all, President Bush had much to fear from a soldier who had fought on the ground in a war which did not need to fought. Tillman was a huge political liability. Let us now review this current information.

NEWS BRIEF: "US war hero Pat Tillman thought Iraq war was 'imperial folly' - former American football player Pat Tillman who was killed in Afghanistan thought George W. Bush was a 'cowboy' ", Telegraph.co.uk, 16 September 2009

"The soldier and former American football player Pat Tillman who was killed in Afghanistan thought George W. Bush was a 'cowboy' and the Iraq an 'imperial folly'. According to a new book, Tillman, who was killed by friendly fire in 2004 and hailed as an all-American hero by the former president, was disillusioned by Mr Bush and his administration's 'illegal and unjust' drive to war. "

Let us stop right here. If NFL hero Pat Tillman truly had come to the conclusion that the war in Afghanistan and Iraq were "illegal and unjust", he would be able to stand on a national stage and voice his opinion once he returned home. Since many Americans idolize their war heroes, Tillman's opinion would have carried a lot of weight, and could have cost President Bush the support he needed to continue to build-up his Afghanistan and Iraqi Wars!

The consequences of Pat Tillman turning against the government was compounded by the fact that the government had really built Tillman up when he first enrolled in the Army. The Bush Administration had held up Tillman as the kind of guy all Americans should endeavor to become; immediately after the attacks of 9/11, he had quit a starting position with the National Football League Cardinals, paying him many millions of dollars, just so he could join the Army to help his nation in such a time of need.

But, when Pat Tillman turned against the government's war policies and was planning to take center stage back home after getting out to publicize that opposition, the government had to act. The result was an "accidental friendly fire" episode which took Tillman's life. He would pose no more problem to the President and his war policies.

" 'In Where Men Win Glory: The Odyssey of Pat Tillman', by Jon Krakauer, the author relates the strong views of Tillman - who gave up his NFL football career to serve his country - and his brother Kevin, who joined the same Rangers unit ... The brothers lamented how easy it had been for Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld to bully secretary of state Colin Powell, both the houses of Congress, and the majority of the American people into endorsing the invasion of Iraq."

Pat Tillman will always be a real hero -- killed because he was about to reveal the truth of a planned and worthless Illuminati war, a "War On Terror".

Krakauer obviously thinks that nothing is worth dying for. It's unlikely that he has found anything worth living for either. The two kinda go hand in hand.

I got about halfway through this book and finally couldn't stand the author's anti-Bush bile any longer. He goes on for pages about the disputed 2000 election to throw doubt on the legitimacy of Bush's whole Administration without once mentioning that the Florida Ballot Project concluded that, even if the USSCT had not stopped the recount, Bush would still have won (see http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/12VOTE.html). And the Nasiriyah friendly fire story was both heartrending and infuriating, but, other than being another blue on blue incident, it had nothing to do with Pat Tillman.

I did, however, come away with an even greater respect for this extraordinary man. He graduated Summa Cum Laude from Arizona State, an rare achievement for someone at a Div I school on a football scholarship. He also turned down a multimillion dollar multi-year offer from the St. Louis Rams to re-sign with the Arizona Cardinals (a notoriously stingy organization) for a one year at league minimum pay because the Cardinals, by picking him in the last round of the NFL draft, had showed they believed in him when no other team had. His journal entries quoted in the book reveal are incredibly articulate and insightful, and are some of the best writing of this sort I've ever encountered.

I have read several of Mr. Krakauer's books, and I have seldom seen a worse mismatch between author and subject. Krakauer is an adrenaline junky turned journalist who seems to specialize in writing about tragic deaths which truly could be considered pointless, from hapless tourist climbers freezing on Everest because they were accidentally caught in a storm to a hapless vagabond starving in Alaska because he accidentally marooned himself on the wrong side of a river. Perhaps inevitably, he views this story through the same prism. Pat Tillman, however, was very far from hapless, and the story of his life and death, while achingly tragic, has profound meaning at a level that I believe someone like Mr. Krakauer simply cannot comprehend.

BS. Krakauer is an accomplished mountaineer and technical rock climber. If you've ever read his book "Eiger Dreams" you'd know that what you say is completely untrue. He has found and done things not only worth dying for, but things that are way more likely to kill him than many of the things the rest of us choose to do.

I wouldn't discount the subjects of Krakauer's stories as "hapless" either. In fact, when one looks at the details that Krakauer gives, they do not seem hapless at all.

I think it did mean something!

I also think the frakkin' idiots who knowlingly lied to the family and media about how he died should be executed!

Well, if you don't consider folks hapless who (a) pay sky-high prices to get hand-held into the "death zone" above 20K feet when their own individual skills wouldn't take get them as far as base camp (I'm not talking about the guides here, just their customers); or (b) don't realize that the level of rivers rise and fall dramatically based on the seasons and if you go across in winter you're unlikely to be able to get back in the spring, I don't know who on earth would qualify.

You speak of what you don't know. Some pay $5000, some pay $80,000 - but hand holding only gets you so far on Everest. One of my friends is a guide on Everest, he runs Sierra Mountaineering International, he's successfully summited Everest twice. He (and I) would disagree that just because you pay a guide to help you to the top of Everest that doesn't make you hapless. It makes you smart. Just as I don't perform surgery on myself, or run electrical wires in my house, I would also hire a guide (and have) to show me how to be most successful in getting to the top of a mountain. I did it to climb Mt. Washington in the middle of winter a few years back. Even the guides on Everest wouldn't make it far if they weren't helped to stage further up the mountain by the Sherpas - so are the guides hapless too?

Shout out to my awesome hapless guide Eric!



He rocks!

So the guy writes book about tragic stories? Everyone has a niche.

Ummm, leaving aside what I may or may not know about climbing, I think we may be having a little semantic issue here- according to Miriam Webster's online dictionary: hapless means:

Main Entry: hap·less
Pronunciation: \&#712;ha-pl&#601;s\
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
: having no luck : unfortunate

My point was that Krakauer wrote about people who died on a frikking expensive vacation or a rather pointless meander into the woods- which to me seems to be the very embodiment of "having no luck" or being "unfortunate". I fail to see what on earth that has to do with your guide friend, who apparently is very much alive.