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#2862138 - 09/17/09 09:45 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Col. Gibbon]  
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sydbod Offline
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Hi CB.

The problem is not one of starting to code again.
The problem is one of direction, and there are basically 3 factions.
1) The old EXE faction with things like FxEXE and how things get done there.(VBH)
2) The new EXE faction that is a modest code rewrite to add new features and fixes.(CodeGroup)
3) The totally new game creation faction. Completely write a new game. (sydbod)

As we all know, there is no right or wrong between any of the 3 choices. They all have their own merits and failings.(but as I am writing this piece I will obviously have to say that the only correct path is No3)

Some of us do interwork with each other, but there is some friction between others. This is a real shame as that sort of problem should not be necessary.

As C.G. has stated, the work continues, despite my interfearance with the rest of the code group.

YES, Woody is correct, this thread is just a bit of blowing away of the cobwebs and seeing what new technology is out there.

Quote:
The "PC performence gain vs advantage gain curve" is currently very flat, cause the currently available programs dont use the possibilitys, so the advantage gain between the absolut latest PC and the most cheap goes rather to zero for a WWII flight simmer and i doubt that this will change in close future.

This is where I again have to disagree with you Ralf.
What you say may be correct for the flight sim area where you are looking for something that is a sim rather than an arcade game.
If you look back to the first videos based on "HAWX". That sort of ground detail, if it was mixed in with the game play of EAW would be something special. Mix in the accuracy of the physics collision system of ARMA2 and it would be better still. BUT .... and it is a BIG BUTT!!!!!(MMMMM I like big butts) if that was done, then one would require the very latest bleading edge hardware, and it would be run right to its ragged edge. Give it another 2 years, and again that sort of system would be middle range.
The building blocks to do this something special already exist. The hardware to run this something also already exists.
What is missing is that the market for this sort of product is too small, and is shrinking all the time.

Regards sydbod smile


"Peace, love and eternal grooviness, man."
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#2862402 - 09/17/09 06:11 PM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: sydbod]  
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iron mike Offline
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ouch, this makes my head hurt..... sigh

#2862446 - 09/17/09 08:03 PM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: iron mike]  
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Did someone bonk you with a Labor Day sign, Mike?

It's all the fine print that software engineers and programmers put on their sign placards. Makes them heavy and a good weapon. biggrin Don't EVER stand too close to the parade and give them the finger.

Hey, Syd! Did you check that corrected link on the holographic universe?

At the rate technology is going, programmers will soon have trouble keeping up with what's coming down the Science Supertrain railroad track--and not getting squashed.
Knegel is right in saying we can't use all that we've got. I certainly don't have the expertise.

The two main factions in EAW that Syd pointed out will become irrelevant before long.
Fancy word for saying they won't matter, because new technology will overwhelm us. I would guess we've got about 10 more years of this kind of Flatland fun on computer screens. If we're lucky. After that, 3-D "feelies" in the air will distract us. Among other things. fearful

Then Syd's 3rd choice (his new EAW sim) will be the ONLY choice. Unless people enjoy sitting in front of quaint old computers playing EAW's version of SWOTL. (Which was a great game, BTW, and had stuff EAW still doesn't have. Wish we had the source code for THAT.)

Remember Star Trek's Enterprise engineer, Scotty, sitting down in front of a 20th Century computer and trying to talk to the mouse?
"Just use the keyboard," an engineer tells him.
"A keyboard! How quaint," Scotty replies, cracking his knuckles and typing out the formula for transparent aluminum.

#2862450 - 09/17/09 08:06 PM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: iron mike]  
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Hi Syd,

you write like time is no factor.
Just take the EAW gameplay and add the Arma2 gameplay and graphics and some stuff from other games and immediately we need the latest generation of PC´s.

Thats true, but if we write it correct, it would be like this: If we just could take the EAW gameplay and add the Arma2 gameplay and graphics and some stuff from other games , then we would need the latest generation of PC´s.

Once again there is the little evil "could", instead of the beloved "can".

It would take at least two years for Profis to do this job, for hobby programmers its just hopeless in our remaining lifespan(specialy yours :P ).

Thats why i have problems to follow your way, to create a absolut new game from scratch. I better would help the target ware or 1% guys or the SFP1 WWII section.
I think iam not unrealitic when i say, its not possible for people like us to create a absolut new game in high quality, although, i agree that this would be the absolut best way, if the aspect of time wouldnt play its role.

Time make the different between possible or impossible.

Do we have the time to develop EAW with a usable result?? Yes!

Do we have the time to develop a absolut new game which comes only a little close to what we have now?? No!

Of course, as long as just programming makes fun, time and the result dont matter. wink

Greetings,

Knegel


If you think `thats close enough´, go closer, until the plane fill up the windscreen, then a short burst is enough!
#2863420 - 09/19/09 06:07 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Knegel]  
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sydbod Offline
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Hi Woody, THANHS smile

Yes I did read that new link. I think I tend to agree very much with that theory.
As is hypothesized, the amount of information (data) on the 2D Space time continuum surrounding all of matter and space can only match all the data expressing all of matter and position within that continuum. The interior data can not exceed the exterior data. (similar to the statement that energy into a closed system must always equal to the energy coming out of a closed system, provided the energy within the system is not changed)
Since my monitor is within that continuum, that theory nicely explains why the image on that monitor is so out of focus and fuzzy. And here I was, always thinking it was just because the monitor was crappy because I picked it up from a garbage collection from the side of a road.
Just goes to show how ignorant I can some times be. smile

Hi Ralf,

I do agree with most of what you have stated.
Where I do disagree is about the relevance of the time factor in what you have stated.
The questions that have to be asked are as follows.
1) does a journey always have to reach its final destination to have any worth.
2) every journey is always made up of many small steps. Are not the many small destinations that are reached by each of these small steps worth the effort even if the final destination is not the one you intended to reach.
3) in the long run, any achievement has no meaning (in 100,000 years time, no mater what you have done will have no relevance) so it is the journey that is important, and not the destination.

Regards sydbod smile


"Peace, love and eternal grooviness, man."
#2863446 - 09/19/09 08:27 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: sydbod]  
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Hi Peter,

i think all this questins i already did answer:

"Of course, as long as just programming makes fun, time and the result dont matter."

Greetings,

Knegel


If you think `thats close enough´, go closer, until the plane fill up the windscreen, then a short burst is enough!
#2863470 - 09/19/09 11:25 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Knegel]  
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Wudpecker Offline
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Quote:
And here I was, always thinking it was just because the monitor was crappy because I picked it up from a garbage collection from the side of a road.

Remarkable. I knew great minds run in the same ruts of the universe.
I picked my Sony Trinitron up off the sidewalk also.
I notice Knegel said he was having such fun that a friend gave him his high-end computer-- Proof we don't have to worry about buying new stuff. The halographic universe will provide for us.

Being the type of kid that takes watches apart, I spent $20 on a special RS-232 cable so I could turn down the over- brightness on my Sony CRT (which is the reason they threw it out, I'm sure).
I admit looking longingly at all the eBay 3+gigaherz computers for sale for $150 or so (with 4 gigs of memory and a DVD-burner).
But my bank hologram warned me. So I spent $40 instead to get 1 gig of RAMBUS memory and keep limping along at 1.4 gigaherz.
Just put the new memory sticks in. Things DO work better--if not faster.
So...there is this overclocking program. It's kinda like making your watch run faster in universal time...hmmm...
rofl

#2863492 - 09/19/09 01:24 PM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Wudpecker]  
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sydbod Offline
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Here is a nice little tidbit of information.
Most of the new CPUs and GPUs(GraphicsProcessingUnit) are heading into the 40nm geometry.
Every time this geometry halves in size, the amount of transistors can be increased roughly 4 times more for the same chip size and manufacturing cost. Likewise the speed of operation can be increased also 4 times faster.

Basically going from a 40nm geometry device to a 20nm geometry device increases the overall processing power by 2X4=8.

Having a look at some info that was provided by Intel.
http://www.hardware.info/en-US/news/ymicl5qVwpuacJY/Intel_shows_roadmap_of_up_to_4nm_in_2022/

The top table shows that we should have a speed increase of around 8 times the current speeds somewhere in the year 2013.

Any one want to calculate the performance we should have in about 10 years time?????

Just imagine what the arguments will be like on a forum like this.

sydbod: Well I think we require more detail on each blade of grass. Maybe grass blade shadows.
Knegel: You are off your rocker. Having 500,000,000 blades of grass per KMsq gives more than enough immersion from 50,000ft for EAW 10.76.. One is too busy battling the enemy to notice the grass shadow anyway.
Col. Gibbon: Mercy me ...... why do people all ways have to upgrade their computers.
Wudpecker: Hey guys, I just picked up an old machine off the side of the road the other day. Its OK, but it can only run EAW 10.76 at 98,462 FPS at a resolution of 12,000,000 X 9,800,000 pixels in 512 bit color mode. This SUX. It is a real immersion killer.
VBH: Don't worry Wudpecker, come over to the FxEXE. It is designed to run properly on a slow machine like what you have.
...
...
...



YES, the same people will still be on this EAW forum.
YES, the same arguments will still be going on, just the size of the numbers will be different.

Regards sydbod smile


"Peace, love and eternal grooviness, man."
#2863611 - 09/19/09 06:56 PM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Wudpecker]  
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iron mike Offline
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Hey Wud, my Sony monitor came from the swap shed at our county recycling center. Fee BTW
it just goes "THUNK-BOING" when it turn on.

#2863915 - 09/20/09 07:26 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: iron mike]  
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Wudpecker Offline
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Good find, Mike. Those old Sony CRT's are great, and can be adjusted all over the place. Usually wrong, and hard to get right again.

Oh, "THUNK-BOING"?
That's just the field coils magnet slamming into place.
No problem.
I wouldn't stand in front of it right when you turn it on, though. mycomputer

#2864039 - 09/20/09 04:12 PM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Wudpecker]  
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iron mike Offline
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Humm, I guess that's why I have a slight green glow lately. screwy

#2864223 - 09/20/09 09:45 PM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Wudpecker]  
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MadProf Offline
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Quote:
That's just the field coils magnet slamming into place.
No problem.
I wouldn't stand in front of it right when you turn it on, though. mycomputer

Wuddy,
That's funny, a good chuckle. rofl

cheers
MadProf


The better part of valour, is discretion. William Shakespeare
#2864300 - 09/21/09 01:48 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: MadProf]  
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sydbod Offline
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HMMM!!!!!
Degaussing .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degaussing

Degaussing monitors:
"Many televisions and monitors automatically degauss their picture tube when switched on, before an image has been displayed. The high current surge which takes place during this automatic degauss is the cause of an audible 'thunk' or loud hum which can be heard (and felt) when televisions and CRT computer monitors are switched on. Visually, this causes the image to shake dramatically for a short period of time. A degauss option is also usually available for manual selection in the operations menu in such appliances."

These sort of procedures will be relegated to historical archives one day soon when the CRT will eventually be totally replaced by LCD, plasma, and other types of displays.


"Peace, love and eternal grooviness, man."
#2864893 - 09/21/09 10:54 PM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: sydbod]  
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iron mike Offline
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geez guys, it's just a "ThunK-Boing". yep

#2864995 - 09/22/09 03:00 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: iron mike]  
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Brit44 'Aldo' Offline
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Sydbod wrote:
Quote:
Just imagine what the arguments will be like on a forum like this.

sydbod: Well I think we require more detail on each blade of grass. Maybe grass blade shadows.
Knegel: You are off your rocker. Having 500,000,000 blades of grass per KMsq gives more than enough immersion from 50,000ft for EAW 10.76.. One is too busy battling the enemy to notice the grass shadow anyway.
Col. Gibbon: Mercy me ...... why do people all ways have to upgrade their computers.
Wudpecker: Hey guys, I just picked up an old machine off the side of the road the other day. Its OK, but it can only run EAW 10.76 at 98,462 FPS at a resolution of 12,000,000 X 9,800,000 pixels in 512 bit color mode. This SUX. It is a real immersion killer.
VBH: Don't worry Wudpecker, come over to the FxEXE. It is designed to run properly on a slow machine like what you have.

That pretty much sums up the range of opinions (but not necessarily the people)

Hardware progresses faster then software, this is a fact. At what hyper cycle of the development does it cease to be hobby and start to be something that must be learned through formal training. It's not a hobby if I have to spend all day working at it.

wink well maybe if I win the lottery and never need money again.

An example. DX10 was started and released with Vista. DX11 will be release in one more month with Windows7. I gave up trying to keep up after the Geforce4.

smile I do not have time to be an inovator. I'm happy being an anthropologist.


TPA who TWI
"The 10th Amendment simply says that any powers that aren’t mentioned in the Constitution as belonging to the government belong to the states themselves."
#2865089 - 09/22/09 07:50 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Quote:
I'm happy being an anthropologist.


Jeez, Aldo. Where did you dig up that original box? goodnight

#2866951 - 09/25/09 02:57 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Wudpecker]  
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sydbod Offline
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Well folks, this should be the last post for this thread as it now has the information in it that I was particularly interested in.

The new ATI/AMD series of video cards has been released, and the results of their performance are now widely available.

For those that are interested in how this new technology (HD5850, HD5870) performs, here is a link that has produced some very nice graphs for all the later video cards.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870_CrossFire/1.html

Although these new cards are expensive today, give it another year or so and they will be in the $100 to $200 price range.

The performance of my current HD4850 is a small pimple next to a volcano when compared to these new cards. frown

And technology marches onwards.

Regards sydbod smile


"Peace, love and eternal grooviness, man."
#2867022 - 09/25/09 06:42 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: sydbod]  
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453Raafspitty Offline
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Wonder if they will fit in my Pentium3. screwy fearful

#2867024 - 09/25/09 06:55 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: sydbod]  
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Hey Peter,

you realy sounds like the lot of guys who always look out for the latest and "best" Supersportbike. They realy say that 170HP are way advanced to 140HP and they say that the undercarriage is so incredible stable, the possibilitys are endless.
But when i drive with them, i turn circles around them with my poor old BMW R100GS PD.
Even when driving races, it got to be clear that 99% of the people will perform better with a 120HP bike than with a 170HP bike.
Why??
Cause the racetracks are not big enough, so the more power cant show the advantage and cause even 95% of the profi drivers cant handle the more power.

But the people on the street now also drive 170HP bikes(they die like flys or drive like grannys).

Fortunatelly we cant die when using a high performence PC of the last generation, but it will last very long time until programs are out to make us able to use the performence.

It is like you say, all wait with starting to make a new good program, cause next year the PC performence will be doubled again.

Only when this stops, or someone realise that we have already by far more than we are able to handle, the development of quality programs will go on.

btw, since quiet a while the undercarrieges of the bikes dont bring fun to me anymore. Yes, they make you faster and yes, its feels like driving on a railroad, but since most people want the feeling of "danger", you need to drive by far more dangerus to gain the same fun like with a older bike, which give you feedback, which start to wobble when the road isnt good etc. This bikes are made for Profis to win a race, not to bring fun.
Unfortunatelly people sometimes start to try to measure their fun with the stopclock and lose the main target out of sight.

The PC marked, same like the Bike marked show that the people already got tired to upgrade their hardware. Slowly they realise that the practical gain is incedible smal, although the gain on the paper is twice as high.

Greetings,

Knegel



If you think `thats close enough´, go closer, until the plane fill up the windscreen, then a short burst is enough!
#2867039 - 09/25/09 08:06 AM Re: How games are progressing. [Re: Knegel]  
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sydbod Offline
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Quote:
But the people on the street now also drive 170HP bikes(they die like flys or drive like grannys).


"or drive like grannys" YES that is me on my Kwaka Z500. Thinking about it, that poor Z500 has not been ridden for the last few years. Maybe I am worrying too much lately about the temporary citizen status of motorbike riders.

You are correct, I just love all this new technology. I love it because I will be able to use it (in a few years time when it become much cheaper).

Because of this new technology, the middle bottom end of the market has some very nice video cards available. I don't know if you actually downloaded HAWX demo and tried it. (forget the game play for a minute and just look at the terrain). On my current bottom end video card HD4550 at 1280x1024 screen mode with 2xAA I get a very nice rendering of terrain and city at reasonable frame rates. We have to remember that this bottom end video card is way faster than the ATI 9800pro of the past. It was not that long ago that people thought the 9800pro to be a monster card ..... who would require anything faster.

In maybe 2 years time a performance like the HD4850 will be $50 bottom end performance, and then it will be easy for realistic sky, water, terrain, buildings, shadows etc. All this is already available to middle/top end video cards.

It is not that I want top end performance with top end graphics, at top end prices. It is a case of getting excited at what will be available in a few years time at very bottom end prices. smile

Quote:
The PC marked, same like the Bike marked show that the people already got tired to upgrade their hardware. Slowly they realise that the practical gain is incedible smal, although the gain on the paper is twice as high.

Here is some interesting information.
The first shipment quota of the new video cards for Australia got sold out within 2 days of the video cards anouncement, and one day before the card even became available within our market.
It is looking like the second shipment of these cards due in a few weeks time will also be prepurchased within another 2 or 3 days.
There are always new younger people coming into the market .... the older fogies like you and I are not important to this particular market segment.


"Peace, love and eternal grooviness, man."
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