Chris “BeachAV8R” Frishmuth analyzes the new HOTAS and demonstrates how it works in several simulations.

Read here:
http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_155a.html

Just one thing I find myself wondering after reading the review: are the pedal brakes disconnected from each other ? ie: being able to apply left or right brake pressure ?

Very nice review. I've been wanting a nice force feedback stick again, I don't like the light tension a spring gives on the X52. I think when DCS puts out the A-10 it's going to cost me a lot.

Thx for your feedback Raw, in more then just one article... it's appreciated.

Yes..the pedal brakes are individual axes..so you can map each to a left or right brake allowing for differential braking. Or..like I said, in a pinch you could map one side to an accelerator pedal and the other to a brake if you wanted to get creative with a driving sim (but you'd have to find some way to lock down the rudder movement so that activating the tops of the pedals wouldn't push the rudder arms too..)

Nice review Chris! One complaint I keep reading about is the lack of center detents on the trim controls aft of the stick. Don't know why this is a sticking point with people. I can't for the life of me think of a single aircraft type I've ever flown that had any center detents on the trim wheels, can you?

so...do you have to ship it back or do you keep it?

Well, my nitpick with that is that the trim wheels are named that only out of convenience really. In a real aircraft, no, the trim wheels don't have detents, however in a real airplane you can't remap trim wheels to other functions - they are what they are. On a HOTAS for a PC game - you might very well want to make those trim wheels something like the X-Y axis for a radar cursor, or perhaps be the controls for tilting rotor nacelles on something like an Osprey, or maybe map them to the elevation and azimuth scan volumes for a radar. Without a central frame of reference for where the rotary is (is it rolled full forward? centered? full aft?) you don't have any idea where your sensor is initially pointed. In the case you present - purely keeping the rotaries as trimmers, then yes, you are correct that detents for the center position is a non-issue.

Hope that clarifies why I think they would be a worthwhile addition. It is worth noting the X52 rotaries have that center detent. Oh..I just thought of one other reason it is worthwhile. For some functions you may map the rotaries to "bands" where when the rotary is out of the center position it is giving repeated keypresses as programmed. For instance, rotating the rotary into the 60 to 100% band might be something like - continuously add flaps until I neutralize the rotary. Without being able to feel where center is, I can never guess where exactly the center is so those keypresses will still be continuing. I hope that makes sense (?)

Edit: Also one other thing. There are, in total, 5 rotaries: 3 on the base of the stick labeled "Trim 1", "Trim 2", and "Trim 3". Just because they are named "Trim" doesn't necessarily mean you have to assign them those functions, although it would be logical to map them to elevator, rudder, and aileron trims. The other two rotaries are on the split-throttle. They aren't specifically labeled "trimmers", but they too lack the centering detent.

Thanks for the question...it was a good one!

It is being boxed up tomorrow and sent away to another staff member who has another task for it. He is going to do the durability test where we hook it up to a robot arm and run it through 100,000 cycles of landings and takeoffs to see if it feels as durable as it is.

Just kidding of course - the other staff member has another tasking..so stay tuned!

Valid points Chris, I guess I tend to think like an old-fashioned pilot, trim wheels are for trimming the airplane whereas rotaries are for controlling the whiz-bang toys on the uber jets the young blow torch jockeys fly these days

I suppose it all boils down to how many rotaries one needs for the sim in question and what functions they are intended for. I have a HOTAS Cougar and agree that for antenna azimuth and elevation, range, etc. center detents are nice. When using the ANT rotary for elevator trim in other sims I sometimes find the center detent a pain in the butt, as there's always a chance that the trim position I need is very close to center where the detent gets in the way. In that case a non-detented trim rotary like the ones on the stick base would be perfect.

My $.02 on ergonomics:

IMO they should have put the 3 stick rotaries on the throttle base, aft of the lighted button panel (lengthen the base a bit, an extra section aft of throttles might even lessen the rear lifting of the throttle base problem during RADAR power moments... or as we say at work, TOGA!) . This is where they are usually located in most aircraft that don't use a coolie hat/electric trim. Think WW2 single seat fighters, nobody should have to move their left hand across the cockpit to behind their right hand in order to trim, in RL you move your 'non-flying hand' to the trim wheels aft of the throttle on the left side of the cockpit in a Corsair/Mustang/Spitfire, or aft of the throttle(s) to the trim wheels on the pedestal or quadrant in a C-172/King Air/B-747. Since this HOTAS is based on military style sticks I believe they really should have put the 'trim' rotaries on the throttle base.

Nice review.

The big question for me is there a deadzone on the Joystick. I was an early adopter of the X52 and found the X52's deadzone made accurate shooting almost impossible.

Just thought of something, on my Logitech mouse if I push down on the scroll wheel I can toggle between smooth scrolling and 'detented' scrolling (if you get my meaning) when working with documents, the push can also be mapped to a chosen key press in games. I wonder if Logitech could have designed a sprung rotary that would allow toggling between having or not having a center detent. Could also be used as another mappable key press.

Would that be (have been) possible based on how my mouse wheel works?

There really is no deadzone unless you set one in the axis properties using the Profiler Software. I'd say that at the base of the stick, where it enters the base unit, there is a quarter inch of no resistance in any range of motion of the stick..but checking that motion against what the stick is reporting shows that even with very tiny movements of the stick you are getting movements translated to the program. Some might NOT like that because that would mean letting go of the stick without setting a deadzone might possibly result in a slight drift tendency. For accurate flying and targeting though, that would be desirable. I tried to capture a FRAPS video of my controller sensitivity page showing the calibration page in motion, but FRAPS only captures video from a 3D accelerated window I guess, so it didn't work.

I'm sure it would be..but I don't know how much engineering that would have required for the G940..

Just wanted to print a correction to the article here and we'll get it fixed in the main article. I just talked to the Logitech representative and he pointed out that my fingernails must not have been long enough because the plastic caps on the buttons on the base of the throttle are NOT permanently marked.. Rather, there are mylar inserts within and all you have to do is tap the button on a hard surface and they will plop out. I tried scraping them out..and when I couldn't I drew the incorrect conclusion that they were permanently marked on there. That was my error!

Picture for reference..the P1, P2, P3 can be removed and the cardboard cutouts installed to label each button:





BeachAV8R

What kind of shotty reporting is this!!!

LOL

At least Logitech set you straight beach

Well, it's funny because I took the buttons off and separated one of the cardboard button labels and I was thinking the whole time..uh..OK..obviously those are stickers in there inside of the buttons. Well, I put my finger in the button cavity and tried to scrape out the sticker..held it up to the light, scrutinized, tried some more..and the thing wouldn't come out. I couldn't even see a seam or ripple that would indicate it was a decal. I tried scraping the inside of the button, the outside of the button..NO GO. I thought..surely Logitech wouldn't be stupid enough to permanently mark the outside of the buttons, but it sure looked like the buttons were cast with permanent marking.

Then I get an email saying "uh..they are held in with static electricity, and they are sort of hard plastic sheets, so all you have to do is tap them on a surface and they fall out.."

Doh!!

Sure enough.

So Logitech wasn't that stupid. I was..

Good grief.

Now you can see why it took me 3 days to install the dishwasher in my house. Technically adept? Not this guy.

I know how it is. Putting out the effort and seeing plenty of views but no discussion or acknowledgment is disheartening.
Reviews here are much more thorough and informative than any of the "usual" sources. Keep up the good work.

That sort of stuff happens all of the time when I explore hardware. At least we get to get it right.

Nice writeup, and a cool product.

Thanks for the review Beach.
I saw the video yesterday so I figured a review was surely on its way.
I was real happy to see you tested it with IL-2.


Wheels

Nice review - the one thing you might want to ask Logitech is what kind of technology they are using inside. Old style potentiometers, optical, Hall-Sensors (unlikely at that bargain price).

Because as always it remains to be seen how durable that thing will be. Logitech hasn't made expensive joysticks for a long time, and the last I had from them failed with side rudder (twist axis) spiking. But that was years ago. I think people expect much more durability out of a 300USD buy than a 70USD buy, lets see if they can fulfill this.

I'd also be curious if there is any way to connect the parts seperatly? For example if you only wanted to use the pedals? Likely not I guess.

Otherwise it looks like a winner - they got a product squarely in the bracket between high end HOTAS (which for me is a 80/20 case) and low end cheap sticks, and they deliver a complete package with FFB, Rudder and Split Throttles for a low price. Someone at Logitech knows the flight sim market well.

Howlong is ''the throw'' / movement of the stick in lenght, same as x52? (shorter or longer).

Hall-Sensors.

Hall Sensors for 300USD total price? Wow.

At E3 Mark Starrett said the stick uses "non-contact magnetic sensors". I said "so, hall sensors?" He said "umm, non-contact magnetic sensors".

I'm not sure what the technical differences may be, but suffice it to say there are no pots used for the X and Y axes.

Thanks. If the FF gear is also solid - but given that even the old Microsoft Force Feedback had a very long life, I suppose they got a good handle on that part by now.

Thanks to Joe for answering that one..I had no idea. I figured on Hall sensors..but I guess Logitech doesn't want to call them that.


No. Both the rudder and throttle plug into the base of the stick, then the whole 3 piece kit is wired to the CPU via a single USB port. I can see how this would be a problem for someone who just wanted to say use the pedals only with another piece of hardware (like a CH yoke). It would have been nice if somehow they could have made it so that each piece could have been used individually, but without having 3 separate USB ports needed to run them all at once. (Maybe using USB connections to daisy chain them together?)

Hmm..sorry I didn't take a measurement. I've already boxed it up to send to another SimHQ staffer, or I'd measure it right now. But, just tooling around with my X52 right now..I'd take an educated guess that the G940 stick has slightly more throw to it.

One thing I didn't know about the stick that baffled me until I read something about it just now is that there is a sensor on the side of the stick that detects when your hand is on the stick (must be optical) and turns the FFB on while you are holding it, and off (or maybe neutral) when you are not. I've been reading that some people are putting a piece of tape over the sensor so that the stick always thinks your hand is on it. The reason (I think) for the sensor is so that if there is a sudden change of FFB parameters (say you get hit back flak and your aerodynamics change instantly) the stick, without your hand on it, won't jump and bang hard against the stops. I believe it is there to protect the hardware...but I'm not a real technical guru, so there might be other reasons too.

BeachAV8R

I'm curious.

In the G27 review, the big deal, seemed to be the use of helical gearing for the Force feedback motors. This evidently prevented some of the "gear crunching" that had been an irritation, according to some reviewers and users, with the G25.

Why then use G25 technology for there latest offering, rather than use the newer G27 gearing ? I know it's more expensive, but it's not as if the G940 is cheap.

Is it because they plan on selling a G960 in 12 months time, if the G940 sells well enough ?

+1 for detents. The stick looks like a control stick from a fighter airplane, so I'd expect the knobs to be optimized for controlling radar antennas, etc. (one of the hat switches would be used for trimming).



I have it too on my G9. It would be a good compromise, though I find the feel of the mouse wheel to be too light without detents. Maybe they could add some screws to control the wheel stifness, too?



Didn't the SimHQ review reveal some centering problems of the G27 (don't remember precisely what was causing it, but I think it was connected with the new FFB mechanism)? Maybe the technology is not yet without its quirks.

BTW, I see that the review doesn't mention that problem where the stick wasn't completely pitch centered in the neutral position, so I presume the problem is solved now?

I was using the newest released drivers (not the ones that came with the installation CD) and noticed no problem with neutral pitch position.

I think the sensor to detect hands-on-stick was already in the very first MS FF stick. It is indeed meant to protect the hardware.

There are also optical sensors on the lower-end Logitech FFB sticks (Strike Force, Strike Force 3D, etc.).

Man, this looks oh so very tempting...In the process of saving up for it some time will pass, so maybe we'll get a few good reports on its durability. Or i can simply take advantage of favorable Euro conversion rates and order from the UK, avoiding the local market's mark-up that makes us pay 150% of the price for most PC related items. (I got a 22" Dell 2209WA IPS monitor a month ago shipped from the UK for 290 Euros total. Price in the US was $200 and local prices start at 370 Euros or so, it's a freaking outrage when ordering from another country is cheaper, postage and packing included!)

I have an old MS sidewinder precision 2 that's been working very well for its age. It's got a couple of base buttons not registering well and minor spiking close to center, but it annoys me because in certain directions of movement it spikes the rudder axis and slightly spoils my aim, so i'm thinking of replacing it at some point during the year.
The reason i haven't moved on to another stick is that the sidewinder is so durable. I'm not going to fork over a load of cash on a customized cougar set or a CH collection, but the lower-end sticks don't seem as well made as the old sidewinders. I think this Logitech set could fill the shoes of an all-in-one middle ground package, as long as it's not proven flimsy during prolonged use.

Yeah..I'm actually torn. After having the benefit of toying around with the G940 for a couple weeks I was sad to have to package it up and send it on for further testing with another Staffer. So now I'm in a dilemma: I have a Saitek X52 (not the Pro version) that I like very well, but now that I've felt FFB I think I'd like to go that route. Question is..do I put out funds for the G940 or wait to see what the Saitek offering down the line (don't know when it will be coming out) will be like? Choices, choices...

I'd hold my horses for another three months and see if the Logitech has any problems reported from continued usage, and how the software support works out.

Then you can always ebay the Saitek.

The article compared the G940 to the X52. What I'd really like to see is a UNBIASED comparison with the Cougar and the CH products HOTAS. Mainly what I'd like to know is the software programing functionality of the G940. I've owned a Cougar and the software was top-notch in customization. I've done research and the CH products HOTAS meets or beats what can be done on the software side of things. Again, I'd like to know what the G940 brings to the table in this aspect. There are many like me that just don't plug in a HOTAS and fiddle in the in-game configuration screen and go.

I think our reviews are unbiased..so whatever we would do would meet with that qualification. Since I don't own a Cougar or CH HOTAS I couldn't do a comparison..but I could with what I do own (Saitek). I've already boxed up the G940 and sent it along to another staffer that is capable of doing a more thorough job on the software side, so look for that in the near future. I'm not a super-advanced user..so we'll have more in-depth coverage for the uber-users soon.

BeachAV8R

Sold ! Just two questions I'd like to ask :

How heavy are the stick and trottle ? Will they stay stable without having to bolt them to the desk ?

Could you comment on the stick's centering mechanism ? Is it spring or does it use electrical motors ? Did you feel any weaknesses or wobbles in the whole assembly ? I've had logitech sticks in the past and that was usually the first thing to show signs of intensive use, eventually making me change for Saitek's srping system (love my AV8R)

Other than this, thanks for the article, I've been waiting for reviews of this stick to confirm my first impression. I really think I'll be buying this one when it comes out. Sounds perfect for DCS:A-10

Cheers

Nico

An article right up your alley is in the works.

Hi Grim,

I suggested Beach park whatever other HOTAS systems he had next to the G940 for size comparisons sake. If Chris had a Cougar and/or CH HOTAS they would have sat on the other side in the photos. Not in any way are we trying to compare hardware-to-hardware functionality in an introduction review. That also explains why there are no Saitek pedals in the images. Yes, Chris mentioned a couple of things he still likes about his Saitek, but it was just that, a couple of comments.

As Joe said, his article will show more what you are asking about.

And will it be out before the end of the month? I've pre-ordere it from Amazon.co.uk, but it would be nice to be able to cancel that order if the Cougar proves to be as good.

No, not until October.

Roger that. Thanks for the reply.

Hmm, reports from people in my squad thats gotten it, and from reading on the logitech forums, there are some birthing issues with the software and stuff.

Any here who got it had any issues with that? Like getting it detected properly, and such?

FYI, new v5.08 drivers released.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2865938/Flight_System_G940_software_up.html

Logitech has just blogged "Flight System G940 Tips and Tricks - Part 1"

http://blog.logitech.com/2009/09/23/logitech-flight-system-g940-tips-and-tricks-part-i/

Logitech...baby. That is an amazing product.

Thanks for the blog link Guod.


Wheels

The software makes a reference to "Left Toe Break" and "Right Toe Break". Are the ergonomics really bad then??

http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/images/technology_155a_004.gif

:-P

I've got a very serviceable set of Saitek pedals, and a CH USB yoke which is rapidly approaching 'dilapidated' status and reached 'not ideal for small military aircraft' status years ago. The G940 stick looks really useful but I'd like to buy the stick and throttle without the rudder for a lower price, and use the Saitek pedals. Looks like that's not possible though...
The pedals aren't force feedback too are they?

Hello,

I was wondeting how the g940 handles non forcefeedback native games. Would it still allow a nice smooth handling or would it just act as a floppy stick?

Cheers

Luca

No; only the stick has FFB. The throttle and pedals have no motors.

I thought I'd share my findings:

the hardware is very well done and works great.
The software is far from completed and lacks basic features: can you believe it isn't possible to assign the mouse mode to the g940?
the nice ministick pov in mouse-mode could have been brillant

Also the deadzone of the toe tips break start from the middle of the axis, and not from the side so it isn't possible to limit the toetip deadzone/sensibility at the moment

Does anybody know the email address of somebody at logitech I could buzz with these?
THis are easy to implement features and I really wish they'll make it in the next software release

THanks
Luca