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#2854672 - 09/04/09 05:36 PM Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some interesting findings)  
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2005AD Offline
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I am posting this here because it is not a technical support issue, I am not asking for help as I have tried everything including a total format of my PC with a totally different OS.

The latest patch claimed to fix this issue but I still get the same stutter and lag. Turning off FFB effects removes the problem. If I get perfectly fluid TrackIR movement with every other compatible sim/game I have then it clearly isn't a system, driver, OS or setup/configuration problem on my end. It has to do with how RoF works on some (not all) systems.

There is clearly a driver conflict with the Microsoft Force Feedback 2 joystick and Rise of Flight with TrackIR enabled. If it was TrackIR software or drivers then ALL sims/games would have this problem. Since they do not, it is safe to conclude it has to be a RoF problem.

I know some people don't see this problem but a lot of us do. I would really love to be able to use FFB and TrackIR at the same time.

I am asking anyone who still has this problem to post here and let the devs know we are still suffering smile

Last edited by 2005AD; 09/05/09 06:00 PM.
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#2854693 - 09/04/09 06:06 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: 2005AD]  
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Tushka Offline
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I used to have this problem also, but the latest patch fixed it for me. I use a MSFFB2 with Win XP sp3 and trackIR 4 hardware with trackIR v 5 software.


C!

Tushka

Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous.

69.GIAP
#2854694 - 09/04/09 06:08 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: 2005AD]  
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timbun Offline
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Same problem as OP. The stutters are still present when turning on FFB effects.

Tested under Vista 32 Professional and Win7 64 bit. Tested TrackIr Software 4 and 5 too, no difference.

My System:

C2DuoE8400@3.2
4 gig RAM
260GTX
X-FI Gamer
MS-FFB2
Trackir 4 Pro

Last edited by timbun; 09/04/09 06:09 PM.
#2854788 - 09/04/09 08:06 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: timbun]  
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Damocles Offline
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I solved this problem by swapping the USB connectors about.

Originally I had both in a USB hub. I tried the MSFFB2 in the front slot on my computer and left the TrackIR in the hub, but it had no effect. I then swapped them about TrackIR into the slot on the front of my computer and the MSFFB2 into the hub. This as far as I can tell solved the problem for me.

Now all I need to do is resolve the small issue of micro stutters that were introduced with the last patch.

#2854834 - 09/04/09 08:56 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: 2005AD]  
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=FB=VikS Offline
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Originally Posted By: 2005AD
I am posting this here because it is not a technical support issue, I am not asking for help as I have tried everything including a total format of my PC with a totally different OS.

The latest patch claimed to fix this issue but I still get the same stutter and lag. Turning off FFB effects removes the problem. If I get perfectly fluid TrackIR movement with every other compatible sim/game I have then it clearly isn't a system, driver, OS or setup/configuration problem on my end. It has to do with how RoF works on some (not all) systems.

There is clearly a driver conflict with the Microsoft Force Feedback 2 joystick and Rise of Flight with TrackIR enabled. If it was TrackIR software or drivers then ALL sims/games would have this problem. Since they do not, it is safe to conclude it has to be a RoF problem.

I know some people don't see this problem but a lot of us do. I would really love to be able to use FFB and TrackIR at the same time.

I am asking anyone who still has this problem to post here and let the devs know we are still suffering smile


We know about this problem are yet present, but hell - we tryed everything and we cant figure out where too search again...


VikS
Flying BARANS Forever!
"All wool - to the front!"
www.barans.ru
www.riseofflight.com
#2854901 - 09/04/09 10:23 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: =FB=VikS]  
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I have tried everything I can think of too Viks smile

I know you are working hard to find what the cause is, and it is appreciated. If I find anything out I will certainly post it here.

#2854905 - 09/04/09 10:30 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: Damocles]  
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Hellbender Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damocles
I solved this problem by swapping the USB connectors about.

Originally I had both in a USB hub. I tried the MSFFB2 in the front slot on my computer and left the TrackIR in the hub, but it had no effect. I then swapped them about TrackIR into the slot on the front of my computer and the MSFFB2 into the hub. This as far as I can tell solved the problem for me.


This is the answer.

Very likely not enough power to the USB port.



chili

#2854935 - 09/04/09 11:43 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: Hellbender]  
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Ming_EAF19 Offline
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In neocube's defence, VikS asked me to notify everyone about this need to plug kit into motherboard-powered USB ports (USB hardware specification requires 500mA supplied per socket, hubs may not be able to supply that amount of current) and I did report it here. Was back in June though so a reminder

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2741239/TrackIR_which_USB_port_technic.html#Post2741239

Ming


'You are either a hater or you are not' Roman Halter
#2855127 - 09/05/09 09:29 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: Ming_EAF19]  
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Originally Posted By: Ming_EAF19
In neocube's defence, VikS asked me to notify everyone about this need to plug kit into motherboard-powered USB ports (USB hardware specification requires 500mA supplied per socket, hubs may not be able to supply that amount of current) and I did report it here. Was back in June though so a reminder

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2741239/TrackIR_which_USB_port_technic.html#Post2741239

Ming


Ming, I know about this TrackIR powered USB issue and have done for months. ALL of my USB devices are plugged into powered ports directly onto the motherboard. I have removed every USB device apart from TrackIR, FFB2 and Mouse and I still get the stutters. Also if EVERY other game I have that uses TrackIR works perfectly well on MY PC apart from RoF then clearly there can be no other reason other than RoF is the culprit for some reason.

I am currently working through different configurations and setups on my PC to see if I can find the reason. That is not to say I accept it is a problem we the RoF customers are uniquely responsible for. Not everyone has the ability nor the time to spend hours upon hours messing around, including many hours wiping and rebuilding different operating systems just to get RoF working with FFB and TrackIR. I appreciate that Neoqb have looked into this issue, my only concern is that they say "well it works on ours so lets forget it".

#2855278 - 09/05/09 04:03 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: 2005AD]  
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2005AD Offline
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Update.

I have been messing around with the settings in Rise of Flight and found the following interesting discovery. I have attached a screenshot to show what happens. I only get the TrackIR stutters if I set both the pitch and roll to use my MSFFB2 axis in the RoF settings input section (under plane control). If I set either pitch or roll to none while keeping the other option set to my MSFFB2 the stutters with my TrackIR are completely gone.

Now obviously this is not a fix as disabling pitch or roll is not a good way to fly smile



I hope this discovery is of some use to the developers in trying to resolve this issue. I must stress that ALL of my USB devices are plugged directly into my motherboard powered USB ports.

#2855647 - 09/06/09 09:13 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: 2005AD]  
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Bumping to keep this where the devs can see it.

#2855651 - 09/06/09 09:30 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: 2005AD]  
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FInland
I got this lag too, patch doesen't help

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#2855653 - 09/06/09 09:33 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter [Re: 2005AD]  
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Originally Posted By: 2005AD
I appreciate that Neoqb have looked into this issue, my only concern is that they say "well it works on ours so lets forget it".


The developers and testing team have been looking for this issue extensively, and the latest update should have helped, and for many users it did, but unfortunately it didn't help everyone. I've bought a MSFFB2 partially just to try to re-create the stutter issues which I have not been able to do on my computer thus far.

One thing I need to try if I can get the time to go back home (working 16 hour days 7 days a week right now!) is to try it in the latest build of Windows 7 again. I DID have some stutter when panning with TrackIR using this OS even without FFB in an earlier version of RoF, but none in XP (32).


S!
TX-EcoDragon

http://www.txsquadron.com
#2855654 - 09/06/09 09:34 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: 2005AD]  
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=FB=VikS Offline
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Originally Posted By: 2005AD
Bumping to keep this where the devs can see it.


rgr, copy that.


VikS
Flying BARANS Forever!
"All wool - to the front!"
www.barans.ru
www.riseofflight.com
#2855655 - 09/06/09 09:36 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: 2005AD]  
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WWBrian Offline
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Sounds like USB power issue to me. But I'm no professional.

Since disabling one axis of your joystick makes that USB port draw less power - you're basically doing 1/2 of the fix of disabling force feedback. It doesn't suprise me that this also fixes your TiR stutter.

One thing to consider is your Motherboard; Is it reputable? Or a "brand X"? How many USB ports does it support(and are you close to the maximum)? Is everything plugged into a non-powered hub, or front panel? How many devices do you use? External drives? Any low-speed USB devices mixed in?

Are you well over your PSU requirements or is your power supply working hard!?

Here's some reading you may find interesting.

http://www.usb.org/developers/whitepapers/power_delivery_motherboards.pdf


WingWalker (virtual) Combat Squadron

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#2855660 - 09/06/09 10:01 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: WWBrian]  
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I hope I am not coming across as if I'm trying to imply this is not being worked on or that the devs don't care. My reason for making my "well it works on ours so lets forget it" statement was because the recent patch incorporates a fix for this issue that no doubt helps a number of people, but not all people.

I think we all know that each system is almost unique in its configuration and how it is setup. I have formatted my PC and reinstalled fresh XP64, Vista 64 and now Windows 7 64. I have removed all my USB devices apart from the MSFFB2, TrackIR, Wireless LAN and the mouse, if it was a power issue then only 4 USB devices would fix it. I have tried front ports, back ports and external powered USB hubs. I have tried removing 6GB of my RAM to ensure it was not a RAM issue. I have removed my X-Fi fata1ty gamer soundcard to be sure it was not the cause of the problem. I have removed one of my two hard drives and tried disabling my swap file and even installed RoF on the same partition as my OS. Overall I have spent hours trying to find the root cause of the problem and this led to to the findings I have submitted here.

WWBrian, my motherboards is a Gigabye X48-DS4 with 8 rear USB ports. It doesn't matter if I only use 4 of these ports or all 8, the stutters ONLY effect Rise of Flight. I can use Armed Assault II, FSX and BoB WoV without any stuttering TrackIR problems using the same hardware.

The MSFFB2 joystick has its own power supply to power the servos/motors for the FFB. It does not draw any more power from USB than a standard USB joystick.

I do appreciate the feedback and the fact that the devs are listening and working on this problem, I only hope my findings/tests are of some small help.

#2855666 - 09/06/09 10:06 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: 2005AD]  
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Glad the issue is still being looked at. The problem still persists for me after the most recent patch.

#2855671 - 09/06/09 10:09 AM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: 2005AD]  
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I hear ya. I guess I was just thinking out loud is all. I wasn't asking for your system specs. You said it wasn't a tech support thread. They were just rhetorical, and what I would look at myself if I were having your issues is all.

Keep reporting your findings! The more info they have, the easier this stuff usually is to figure out.

Hope it gets resolved soon!

S!
Quote:

It does not draw any more power from USB than a standard USB joystick.

[edit] Also. FFB does draw more than a standard USB joystick. While you are correct in that the power supply with the J/S powers the shaking, it still needs a signal from the PC to turn those on and off...which comes thru USB...

Last edited by WWBrian; 09/06/09 11:00 AM.

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#2855709 - 09/06/09 01:27 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: 2005AD]  
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I know about this TrackIR powered USB issue and have done for months

For the many dear readers checking this thread who have not known for months, see Page 1 for neoqb's (via NaturalPoint tech) note on power requirements for USB ports running kit under RoF

Ming


'You are either a hater or you are not' Roman Halter
#2855713 - 09/06/09 01:32 PM Re: Question about TrackIR and MSFFB2 stutter (updated with some findings) [Re: Ming_EAF19]  
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FFB does draw more than a standard USB joystick

Yes that's it Brian, MSFFB2 sticks are running motors: motors use lots of current. Hmm inrush current

Ming


'You are either a hater or you are not' Roman Halter
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