...because of this I have been reading up on OFF. The game looks well done. The graphics look better then IL2 and the number of airplanes seems to match as well.

I want a WWI sim with great single player, a rewarding campaign, and is just a joy to fly.

Does OFF fit my needs?

I have both flight sims as well and I found RoF did not come close to my expectations either. I paid the full $50 for Over Flanders Fields Between Heaven and Hell when it first came out and I find the money was exceptionally well spent. Now it's down to $29.95 + about $10 for Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 3 if you don't already own it. With the recent 1.32f Superpatch the game is being called a "classic" and I agree. If you want an immersive single player dynamic campaign, OFF is the flight sim with, in my opinion, the most options, variety and good old fashioned white knuckle flying.

Hellshade

Thats a big fat YES!

You'll love it.

BULL

A joy to fly? Absolutely. Best money I ever spent on a flight sim, and I've owned most of them. Very supportive community, too. If you have the PC muscle to run ROF, BHaH should run very well. BTW, I bought a backup copy of 2 CD version of CFS3 at Best Buy today for $9.95. If you can find one, buy the DVD version from Ubisoft (might be able to find one on E-Bay).

read this

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2841129/Finaly_ordered_OFF.html#Post2841129

Counterman,

"I want a WWI sim with great single player, a rewarding campaign, and is just a joy to fly."

Well, I find that the SP aspect is top notch - there's plenty of WWI to choose from! Campaigns are immensely well done: if you had RB3D, you'll find them to be much, much better. The only absences I can see from RB are the infamous kill board(s) and the ability to transfer squadrons, but that's pretty small beer. The rest is there in spades. It's a mixed pleasure to fly, from my POV: I love getting up there and doing my bit for King/Kaiser and country, however the AI is fearsome and I have an increasing stack of dead pilots festering under my desk. That's another difference to RB3D I forgot to mention.

I just wish I'd found out about OFF years ago, although I'm told that P1 and P2 versions weren't really the business. P3 is.

Yes it is great. I´ve had it for two weeks, still learning but enjoying it along the way. But it is hard. Really hard. Flown about 20 missions, got shot down every time Guess practice makes perfect. Or not...

Awesome guys! Thank you for your input, it's greatly appreciated. This thread right now has about 174 views so perhaps I wasn't the only one wondering this. I will swing into Best Buy later today and see if I can find a copy of CF3.

Ironside -

It's nice to hear you get shot down. I rarely get shot down in RoF due to a bandit on my tail, I alway die from flak or some insane deflection shot from 200m away that happens to nail me between the eyes.

"It's nice to hear you get shot down."

For me, it's a racing bleedin' certainty!

The campaign is excellent and provides a good WWI simulation. It is also fun and an excellent SP experience.

The quick missions in OFF3 are fun and I can actually see my bullet hits and I feel like I am really shooting. The OFF3 AI will kill and the AI fly well but the AI will "not" kill you with impossible snap shots to your engine or head all the time. I am beginning to conclude that the AI ROF bullet hits are just faked/forced/random and that each bullet is not really modeled (but I am not sure and I can not prove it). ROF developers will not answer any questions concerning what they have implemented.

OFF3 can be set up and played at you own personal taste with many options that have been carefully designed and implemented.

Last, the game is supported by the OFF3 developers. OFF3 questions are answered and the community is first rate and mature.

I think OFF3 will meet your WWI gaming/simulation requirements.

It is a shame about ROF not meeting our key expectations and our WWI simulation requirements but all the WWI and ROF PR has certainly seemed to helped OFF3 sales and interest which is a very good thing, IMHO.

I just love options as I think most players do as well.

Well, like I said, I am going over to Best Buy today and I am purchasing CFS3 if they have it. Then I will come home and order OFF3.

As far as RoF goes... There is something seriously wrong with a game when it divides people down bitter lines. There is all this blind sheepish hope that people have about it and there is nothing to back up the hope with aside from faith. From what I know about OFF it was a grass roots effort by a group of WWI aviation history and flight sim geeks (I mean that with much respect). THOSE are the kinds of people I want making my WWI flight sim. -Not some Russians who can't even afford to hire a proper translator for their English version.

I think you might be right about the bullets Buddye. I too have never see bullets and I have set my converge to 50m on my guns. There is no way I can pump 5 seconds worth of ammo into an opponents cockpit and he's still flying. If I even give the AI a chance to hit me, even for a split second, I am dead.

The OFF devs are unique Counterman. Very hands on, attentive, respectful and very much a labour of love. Money can't buy that love. And yet they have produced a "classic". In my limited experience the only other sim I know of where the devs are equally on the ball is BOBII.

RoF on the other hand is beginning to leave a nasty taste for many here at SimHQ. I'm not sure if the Russian devs even care. They certainly don't seem to. It's like they've gone into their shell ignoring the west as being too troublesome and concentrating only on the Russian/Eastern Europe market. Arrogance perhaps ? Inexperience ? I don't know. They're just not communicating apart from the odd token effort to keep the faith basically but meaningless otherwise. It's wearing thin.

OFF3 has been ordered and CFS3 too. Not sure where OFF is shipping from but maybe this weekend I'll get some WWI flying goodness.

from Mountainview California took only one week to germany

Got my copy of OFF yesterday in the mail. I promptly installed it and the most recent superpatch. I flew CFS3 over the weekend and wasn't all that impressed with it to be honest; old graphics, MSFS flight models, and just kind of a clunky/clicky interface. I began to think what did I get myself into??? The OFF screenshots were alot better than this, how could the developers make this game look so awesome?

Well, after a few minutes of familiarizing myself with the interface in OFF, I created a new pilot and went for a quick flight in a D7.

I couldn't believe I was technically still playing CFS3. The graphics are fantastic for the age of the original sim, it's not the kind of eye candy you get in RoF, but they still enhance your flying experience. The colors are realistic, RoF is way too bright and cheery for me when it comes to its landscape. As I begun to fly around I started to hear the sounds of war around me, perhaps a bit over done (but how would I know? I was never there), I could hear rifle shots, machine guns, artillery, and flak. There were HILLS! I don't think I have ever seen hills (large and small) modeled in a flight sim like I do in OFF. The world was alive (even on free flight), many objects on the map, even observation balloons were lining the front.

The differences between OFF and RoF are very clear to me now. RoF has the eye candy and the flight models, but OFF has everything else. OFF flight models are good, but they suffer from the limitations of the Microsoft sim environment.

Overall I am overjoyed with the product that these developers have produced. It's fun, engaging, and has history in it. Hopefully the more I fly it, the more I can post about it. Anyone who is disappointed with RoF and seeks an amazing single player experience needs to give this one a try.

-Did I mention there are dozens of planes to choose from too? 36ish I think..

Your words could be mine. I experienced the same feeling has you a month ago.
Only now I'm much more addicted. OFF it's really a great SP experience.

Hmm. Interesting.

My only gripe is Im still waiting for my copy to get here (I ordered it Saturday night, whats the hold-up???)



-jk-

Took 5 days to get here. I ordered it on a Wednesday and got it on a Monday.

9 bucks for USPS shipping was BS. I could have shipped myself in a flat rate box for 9 bucks USPS across the country. (not really, but you get my point)

"The differences between OFF and RoF are very clear to me now. RoF has the eye candy and the flight models, but OFF has everything else."

From everything that I've read about OFF and ROF, I suspect that there's the definitive nail/head posting.

Not a totally fair statement

I've not seen any real preferences shown to east or west. It's a global market and we are all getting patched and aircraft at the same time. All communication via the blog is produced in Russian and English at the same time.
The ROF website has plenty of updates and the forum regularly has the devs posting in it.

RoF isn't perfect by a long way but neither is OFF. What OFF lacks RoF makes up for it. What RoF lacks OFF makes up for it.

Horses and courses I suppose.

"The ROF website has plenty of updates and the forum regularly has the devs posting in it."

I suspect they'd make a lot more friends and soothe some ruffled feathers if the posted on SimHQ!

"Horses and courses"? This is not an expression known to native born and raised folks in the United States. Does it have the same meaning as "six of one, half a dozen of the other?" If not, please translate.

More like "different strokes for different folks"

Point is rather simple really:

I bought RoF expecting it to be a WWI Historical Combat Flight Simulator. Oh it's indeed a good flight simulator for WWI aircraft, I even get to shoot stuff, but it's hardly what I expected.

OFF is a WWI Historical Combat Flight Simulator, which is exactly what I wanted. Lots of planes, skins, awesome terrain, and a rewarding experience.

If RoF ever has half the content that OFF does, I'll start to give it more respect as a WWI Combat Flight Simulator. I should be able to fire up RoF, start a campaign, and without realizing it 3 hours have gone by. I get that with OFF.

It's referencing an English saying. "horses for courses", taken from the sport of Kings, horse racing
Adopted into the english vernacular, meaning choosing something to perform something specific.

ie: I use OFF for offline campaigning and RoF for Online and quick dogfights. A "different horse for each different course"

You Brits are weird.

I'll be honest, I never heard the saying before, but the longer version I have heard similar.

The Yank term is Mudders, and Fodders, and that`s old school. Puts

tit for tac

apples for oranges or an apples to apples comparison

point by point

eye for an eye

Interesting.. What are some other phrases like this?

Puts, never heard of that expression. What part of Yankeeland are you from?

Different dawgs for different critters...same shotgun, just different ammo though.

[quote=Brigstock
RoF isn't perfect by a long way but neither is OFF. What OFF lacks RoF makes up for it. What RoF lacks OFF makes up for it.

Horses and courses I suppose.
[/quote]

Perhaps Brig, one sim has the cart before the horse Once they get that sorted it'll take off and be what was promised.

I`m from Dixie, it`s an old horse racing term. Puts

Let's see, "the right tool for the job at hand", or "Don't send a boy, to do a man's job".

I never really got into OFF and I will never buy ROF for reasons I probably should avoid in this thread. I paid a huge chunk of change for OFF too and it will never be even close to IL2 as far as I'm concerned. I went back to full time IL2 until SOW comes out. Or I should say "if" SOW comes out.

I disagree with someone saying the graphics of OFF is better than IL2. Yeah, the ground looks better because OFF does not use the bitmap layered forests that IL2 uses. But the aircraft in IL2 look way better at any distance than the ones in OFF. Even RB3D of ten years ago had better looking planes that OFF does. Or maybe my memory of that classic sim is just too tainted by biased fondness.

The thing that kills OFF for me is that it's about impossible to survive more than 15 or 20 missions before something kills you somehow. It's not a question of if, just when. But something will get you. That's actually very historical but I think you have to draw a line sometimes between realism ( in the realm of survival likelihood ) and the sake of game play. It's just no fun to get killed in a campaign any way you slice it. It's OK sometimes and to be expected in any sim but not every time you turn around. The only way to survive your aerodrome being attacked is by just sitting on the ground and opting not to fight!! I got killed in about 3 out 5 of those missions. Crash landings at slight angles should also be way more survivable. That always infuriated me to no end.

Then there's the time element, I'm referring to the inability to end many missions in a timely manner. For someone short of time it's frustrating to be behind enemy lines with lots of enemies in the air. You have to fly back to your own lines in real time, no way to speed it up due to the enemies. And you can't end a mission ( why, I don't know ) behind enemy lines or you're considered captured, ending your career ( yet again ).

I'm really glad that some people really enjoy this game but personally I wish I could have tried it before I bought it. Simply too many times I played OFF and pounded my fist in to things in fury. And this is the only sim that has had that effect on me, ever. And I've had most of them going back to 1992!!

Never mind Fishingnut. It's not for you then. But thanks for contributing to sales and supporting WW1 flight sims if you purchased P3. Can't ask more than that.

Now, I sympathise with your above statement. The last time I "pounded my fist into things in fury" was many years ago with a FPS Xbox title called ....{wince, it still hurts!} .... Soldier of Fortune for a bit of light relief. Well it was all jolly good fun until I got to {wince again!} "THE ROOFTOP" level. The 2nd last level I think .... GAAAAAA !

ARG ! So there I was on this bloody roof on an island about a mile up with limited ammo opposing an aggressive Osprey kitted out with unlimited ordinance and rocket launchers that grew back no matter how many times one blew them away. I tried every tactic I knew (remembering that a gentleman never cheats ;)) for days on end and never got to the last level. Rage is not a word that adequately described my feelings at the time and I will never forget it as long as I live. I think I may have pounded my fists into many things before seeking solace in alternative diversions.

It is true this is a sad story .... but I'm glad I got it off my chest. Never again !

Good post Fishingnut,

Some games are just not your cup of tea and it is best to move on.

It's perhaps worth pointing out that the latest incarnation of OFF (ie, the latest patch or so) now has 'pilot never dies' as a tickable option. Seeing as you've already lashed out good money on OFF, would that help you to get the longer campaigns, as I'd agree that it's heartbreaking to lose a pilot who has 15-20 under his belt.

Still, they did (or still do) advertise it as something along the lines of 'can you survive as long as the average WWI pilot', or similar.

SimonC has a good point, it was very hard to survive in the air, even the great aces had close calls with death, and many did`nt live to see the end of the war. A lot of them died shortly after the war in flying accidents, flying was a dangerous business even in peacetime. I don`t expect to survive the war, and just try to make it thru one more day. I play DiD, and enjoy all the furballs one can get into, better yet try to get out of. Puts

Hello,

Fishingnut wrote:

" ...
I disagree with someone saying the graphics of OFF is better than IL2. Yeah, the ground looks better because OFF does not use the bitmap layered forests that IL2 uses. But the aircraft in IL2 look way better at any distance than the ones in OFF. Even RB3D of ten years ago had better looking planes that OFF does. Or maybe my memory of that classic sim is just too tainted by biased fondness.
..."

Well, i am playing IL2 sometimes, and its WW2 aircraft are (certainly being much more "simple" from appearance) nice to look at - but they are not really a competition for OFF phase 3 ?! Nice, but not nice enough. And RedBaron3d, certainly with HASP or Canvas Jacket patch, do not come close - i just flew it yesterday, and while i am still liking the small single missions provided like "Get airborne with Boelcke and fight off the BE2s" neither the planes nor the flight model comes anything close to OFF - really, getting airborne, or landing is ridiculous in RB - i still like it because it was a complete sim in every aspect, with phantastic online possibilities, but remember all else was all done by independent fans much later (who now work for OFF, as i might add). The original RB sim was nothing to write home about.

"...
The thing that kills OFF for me is that it's about impossible to survive more than 15 or 20 missions before something kills you somehow. It's not a question of if, just when. But something will get you. That's actually very historical but I think you have to draw a line sometimes between realism (in the realm of survival likelihood ) and the sake of game play.
..."

Well most say this is nothing but historical, since most pilots indeed did not survive the war - but just in OFF of all sims you can adjust so much things for your liking, from "pilots never die" to less accurate enemy fire, or less accurate AA, simple landings, or adjusting the flight model - i still think the side slipping along with rudder action and how it works, is really best simulated in OFF - and RoF.

I agree that lighter crash landings kill the pilot too easily, as well there is no collapsing gear and belkly landings, all instantly ends in a big boom fireball - still CFS3 style.

"...
Then there's the time element, I'm referring to the inability to end many missions in a timely manner. For someone short of time it's frustrating to be behind enemy lines with lots of enemies in the air. You have to fly back to your own lines in real time, no way to speed it up due to the enemies. And you can't end a mission ( why, I don't know ) behind enemy lines or you're considered captured, ending your career (yet again ).
..."

There's always warping (x, or ctrl-x?), which unfortunately only works without enemies in the vicinity - but YOU CAN speed up your flight pressing the ctrl-shift-e for accelerating, and ctrl-shift-r for reducing. The more times you press it the faster the time passes, even with enemies near - just try it ! Only one hint : You may NEVER assign those keys to anything else, because you will not be able to re-assign them - doesn't work. Spare those for exactly this, no other keys can be assigned for it as far as i know, without having to re-install OFF.

"...
I'm really glad that some people really enjoy this game but personally I wish I could have tried it before I bought it. Simply too many times I played OFF and pounded my fist in to things in fury. And this is the only sim that has had that effect on me, ever. And I've had most of them going back to 1992!!
..."

You could have tried before, if only with the free OFF phase 2, but then you cannot compare this with the new "MkIII" version. Pounding my fist in anything has become a "sign of quality" of sims for me - for me that is lol

Greetings,
Catfish

I keep plenty of pillows handy.

Good points for sure. However as Catfish says there are workarounds or settings to cope with most of these points.

The campaign is a realistic campaign were possible, so yes surviving is tough, you will not "win the war" single handedly, that's the idea, BUT you can adjust your pilot chances of survival in the workshop settings. From dead is dead, to death on a die roll (more chance to survive) right up to pilot never dies. You also have the chance to escape if you quit over enemy lines, and if you turn on pilot never dies you will not be captured either and YOU then can decide when you would have died, for example crashing at 200mph into the ground and just go make a new pilot.

In the latest Superpatch V1.32 and subsequent minipatches we added many new options. Including Air Start so you can start right over the target for those with limited time, that don't want to take off and fly to target.

New Quick Scenarios so you can get right into the action.

New mode as Steve pointed out for QC and Quick Scenarios - "Pilot never dies" to save you losing your pilot and having to create a new one.

Exploding from hitting your wing on the ground has gone too very very very annoying bug we could not find for a long time but we squashed the little B in the end. Still each to his own, no sim is perfect, and no sim will please all people.

Good discussion though.

Some of the models in OFF where made quite a few years ago, and we learned as we went along.

New models are coming, and getting better. We have updated several along the way and new ones.

One of the new models Fokker E.V. pics..
http://www.overflandersfields.com/Preview%20Pics/index.html

I guess it's all what you want out of a sim. Yes knowing your pilot chances he won't make it 17hrs let alone survive the war is very small indeed playing on full realism settings. ODB has supplied the means to "color your world" just about anyway you like. Another game that comes to mind that was similar in the "tough road ahead in surviving department" is B-17II. 25 bombing missions starting out in 1943 on full realism isn't a walk in the park just like OFF3 BHaH isn't either, but it's adjustable also. You either play DiD and accept what happens or play with some of the "help" the devs have supplied, no foul either way IMHO, it's all about what you want to get from the gaming experiance.

On a personal note I think the hardest part for any sim pilot to accept is their virtural persona's death by means that seem somehow coded in the game. I myself (and others I'm sure) have had pilots that were doing very well, experianced (hours) and a good number of kills only to wind up dead because (insert your mission here). I seriously doubt there is a routine running in the game that spots a pilot that is close to breaking 17hrs or even surviving the war and makes sure that doesn't happen by hook or crook. That being said I sure there is a routine running that may apply a variable percentage to your pilot surviving x hours or x missions dependant on which side hold's the advantage in quality of pilots and equipment in the time period your flying in. But even in these events I'm sure there is a randomizer that even if your side holds all the cards your pilot can end up dead through no fault of your own. And just as in real life it's lady luck that decides on which end of that percentage your pilot wind up on.

IMHO based on my BOBII experience, most all players just do not really like to die in a sim. They may say it is OK but deep down they do not like it.

Well, the good thing about OFF is that it's very customizable. My only disagreement with previous posts is in regards to the comparison of IL2 and OFF aircraft. I think the terrain is pretty evenly matched at high resolutions and i don't even have phase3, but phase2 looks just as good to me as some of the highly detailed mod maps for IL2.

As for aircraft graphics however, i think IL2 takes the lead simply because of the higher detail in cases of damage to the airframe, even if those graphics are scripted to a large extent. RoF i didnt buy for various well known reasons to most people who didn't buy it, but after spending about 10 hours on the demo i can say it comes ahead of everything i've seen to date in regards to aircraft graphics and general detail (moving parts and aircraft sounds). I haven't seen Black Shark though, that could come pretty close i guess.

The damage graphics in RoF are very good but as is usually the case nothing is perfect. In the case of RoF, it's the exact opposite of OFF. In OFF your plane could explode in a slightly rough landing when all that should happen was perhaps a torn off wheel and a subsequent groundloop, the damage representation is too "explodey" sometimes for lack of a better word. In RoF it's the opposite, it's too soft sometimes. I mean, the rag-doll physics and watching wings and fuselages get bent in realistic ways and not outright explode is nice most of the times. However, if your wingless crate plummets vertically to the ground from an altitude of 3km at terminal velocity, explosion or not, the kinetic energy would be sufficient to reduce everything to a pile of fast flying shrapnel. What you get in RoF though is simply a fuselage that's broken and twisted in 4-5 points along its axis.

I will give OBD credit as they have toned down the exploding AC quite a bit in the latest patches, you still have them but much more smoking hulks too, it has improved and thats always a good thing. Now not trying to beat up on RoF (which I have also) the DM are definately a mixed bag of nuts. Definately first rate in combat,crumpling wings, parts flying off, low speed low altitude ground impacts. But like Blackdog_kt stated the DM is most unbelievable in a terminal speed death plunge from any height, almost cartoonish if I dare say, I almost expect to hear "Booooiiiiinnnngggg" when my aircraft hit's the ground in RoF

Blackdog_kt my friend stop torturing yourself, get OFF3 BHaH you will be so glad you did. When you have it up and running on a PC screen in front of you, screen shots and videos just don't do it justice.

O/T
Buddye1 my man, excellent work on BOB II WOV 2.10 patch w/Multiskin. I am really enjoying the hell out of it. Those guys waiting for the other BoB sim don't know what they are missing if they are not playing this sim now

A final thought, yesterday I read a post on the RoF subforum here and some said if RoF fails it would be the death knell for PC flight sims, WWI in peticular. Funny I honestly don't see it that way, if these guys would just take the blinders off, stop listening to the nay sayers concerning OFF using CFS3 game engine and realize it's perfectly all right to have OFF and RoF on the same HD it's not high treason you know. They would realize what some of us have known for sometime that there are not just one but two excellent first rate combat sim's out there right now. Both offer high levels of immersion, good GFX,FM,DM and excellent SP campaigns and excellent dev support and continued development. Of course I'm refering to OFF and BoB II WoV, I guess the old saying is true that "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink". And it's such a shame that some people won't even reconize these two sim's like they don't even exist

Hi godzilla,

Thanks for the kind words and PR for our Time Machine (BOBII version 2.10).

It is sad but I have given up on ROF and I will focus on OFF3 for my WWI Flight Sim.

I have to say, however, that ROF has increased the interest in WWI Flight SIM's and I will just bet that the increased interest has improved OFF3 sales which is just super , if true.

Maybe we need to continue the OFF3 vs ROF PRO/CON comparisons.

If the developers could get OFF multiplayer onto hyperlobby it would kill RoF stone dead.

If not then just wait for neo[] to kill ROF off themselves. I don't see them managing to ignore the all-is-wonderful crowd (or themselves) long enough to actually undo some of the really terrible decisions they appear to have made.

In my case that's what happen, Buddye1.
I saw a review about ROF and became excited about it. I've always loved WWI ( I still cannot understand why I didn't play Red Baron). Registered in this forum because of ROF and read someone commenting about another WWI sim called Over Flanders Field. The poster commented about a real campaign in it. That was all I wanted to hear.
If it wasn't ROF I wouldn't know about OFF.

I'm with Von Paulus on his reply above. If it wasn't for a friend of mine directing me here with regards RoF, I would likely still be without OFF:BHaH, which I really enjoy, despite any niggles.

I also discovered BoBII here and absolutely love flying that sim as well, again despite any niggles. I have IL2/PF on my HD as well, and have simmed there for many years now, again despite all that games flaws/fixes. I still have RoF on my HD, and I'm under no illusions that its got probs too, but I still have fun when I fly it.

So, yes, trust me I understand there are problems in flight sims, regardless of the historic period, but I'm still going to support them as best I can because I love flight sims- just don't expect me to write 'gloom and doom' (nor do I bother to read those types of posts anymore- I'll read constructive critiques however) bits unless I'm crying/moaning over my best D.i.D pilots death.. !S!

Seems there's quite a few who've stumbled onto OFF as a by product of RoF's publicity. Strike me pink those canny OFF dev types ! I just knew they had a master plan ! Beautifully executed.

Shortly after RoF was released and people started complaining the Missus and I were discussing that very thing. Before RoF's released I must admit that I was concerned that it might overshadow OFF to the point that OFF's sales would dwindle and we (the flight sim community) would never see a Phase 4, which would be a bloody shame. My concerns faded after a couple of weeks when I started seeing quite a few new faces on the OFF forums here at SimHQ and at CA.
All BS aside, RoF has been a good thing for the flight sim community at large and for OFF in particular, because IMO it brought much needed attention to the genre.

Well said and that is why we should try hard to support all new Fight Sim's that our PC's will run. I purchased ROF and I tried very hard to play ROF but I am getting older and when ROF frustration (outages where you can not play, slow load times, no SP, no real campaign, stick sensivity problem, bullet issues, no instant on dog fight server, no User Manual for ROF or Mission Editor, etc.) became greater than the benefits (wonderful GFX, FM, DM and AI), I gave up. We can only hope it will get fixed and become a real WWI sim.

I was very surprised when the OFF3 guys wanted to limit the ROF discussions at the OFF3 forum as I saw it as money in the bank.

Excellent perspective, Buddye1. I don't own ROF and won't buy it (I'm more into SP than MP) but I agree with your comments. Although I have to express surprise that some people would never have heard of OFF if not for ROF. I don't get the connection. If you're a hardcore flight sim buff you make yourself aware of all flight sims by visiting sites such as SimHQ on a regular basis. It just stretches believeability for me that anyone who has heard of ROF never heard of OFF. I would think it would be the other way around.

Maybe that applies to hardcore sim buffs I'm only speaking for myself- I love flight sims, but I'm not HC about any game so prioritization may be differing on my part :P , and did not know OFF even existed, and neither did any of my gaming colleagues until we started coming here because of the RoF info in the RoF forum area. I started reading the other areas a bit and got intrigued by what OFF had to offer. Same for Buddye and Co's BoBII. Sorry if that stretches your believability still. Cheers.

Exactly. I'm no HD flight sim buffer. The last time I played a flight sim was "Flying Corps". Because I've read (and read) a "lot" about the historical period in question I was always, since Wings on Amiga, have a certain appetency for WWI flight sims.

Well, the more PR the better it seems. I think non-hard core players will give Sims a try if they just know about them but so few read the forums.

As with most of us it is an issue of time and interest.

I stumbled onto OFF Phase 1 back in mid 2006. One of those revelatory moments one has from time to time. I had made a decision in early 2006 to investigate PC flight simming as a hobby. Being a complete noob and knowing nothing about it I promptly went out to my local EB store and bought CFS3, Pacific Fighters and BOBII WOV. Of course, there were no titles available for my real love the WWI air war.

I tried CFS3 first and as I'd never flown a PC plane in my life (and because it was a M$ title who were flight sim leaders right ?) I was excited at first but it waned quickly as lifeless with drab scenery. So onto PF, but as the Pacific Air War wasn't really my scene I lost interest in it too. Onto BOBII .... bugsville ! But I wanted to persist so I began lurking at the forum and promptly downloaded the 2.05 patch I think it was .... and bingo ! A game I could enjoy that was about the greatest aerial defeat in history. Hmmm, better get a twist stick ... these guys are serious. And I was hooked.

But yet the WW1 air war hounded me constantly. Where were all the titles ? There was a bunch of them in the 90's. What happened ? It began to bug me. So I began searching the world wide web but couldn't find anything of any substance really until I came across some screenshots of OFF Phase 1. How I stumbled onto OFF I can't remember exactly but I'm glad I made the effort. Those screenshots looked like heaven to me back in those days ! And then I found out you also needed
CFS3 to install OFF. Oh Joy ! I have that !

And so a complete nooby went off on an amazing OFF adventure with a learning curve going straight up to the heavens ! WWII, unfortunately has taken the second fiddle position. Sorry Buddye ... but good job man.

So the question is, and following on from Buddye's comment .... why do/did so many WW1 simmers apparently not know about OFF or at least not until RoF brought OFF to their attention ? It has always puzzled me. I think I just used google and I was not a member of any forum at the time for any insider info. I do see a lot of comments saying "wow where did this come from" or words to that effect. I don't get it ?

Frankly I don`t understand it either, I`ve been aware of OFFs phase1 from it`s conception, and have followed it thru until it`s present state. Like a lot of OFF players I had CFS3 laying around gathering dust, and was more than happy to put it back to use. Puts

I didn't know about OFF until a few weeks prior to the release of Phase 3 (BH&H) - how's that for timing, eh?

Prior to that I'd played RB3D and loved it, lost the CD, lost interest, had RL nonsense overwhelm me, recovered, discovered one or two WWII flight sims (which were mostly crap) then found IL2. Because my then PC couldn't handle it, it stayed on the shelf for a while, allowing me to pick up FB and PF cheaply, then I upgraded PC to take advantage of said purchases. Enthused, I bought IL2:1946 and was back to square one with an inadequate PC (patience! i'm getting there!). Remembering the fun of RB3D, I bought a copy off Ebay: in German, dammit! Grr. Eventually hit the web and found the full download - hurrah! Then, thanks to t'interwebs, I tracked down WFP2 and FCJ - double hurrah!

The point is, in all that wandering around, I never clocked the existence of OFF - or, for that matter, sites like CombatAce and SimHQ - so there was no inkling of the wider community that existed. I even had no idea that MP existed, although I noticed that various RB3D sites mentioned membership of virtual squadrons (how quaint, I thought naively...).

It was only after I bought FE, and rather disappointed with the lack of planes, found CombatAce with a ruck of add-ons that I stumbled across references to OFF. It was really that late in the day - I missed P1 and P2 entirely.

Why have I given you this rambling narrative? Well, mainly to show that there are many, many gamers out there - particularly those who only play SP - who probably wouldn't have heard of OFF because they're not part of a wider community, and because OFF isn't available in shops. Hell, I probably wouldn't have found FE if I hadn't toddled into my local branch of Game on day, a bit bored with reloading and reconfiguring RB3D and add-ons for the umpteenth time.

So, let's celebrate the publicity that ROF has generated for the genre. If it means that more people end up with OFF, then it's a serendipitous event, and good for all of us.

Well I just stumbled upon ROF by chance. I play ARMA II and was not looking for any other game or sim. After looking at ROF trailer I just asked myself why not, I have loved Wings on Amiga. And ROF looks very nice only no real campaign. That's why I decided to look if there was another sim but with a decent campaign. And yes it exists it's called OFF. To add I didn't have any prejudice against CFS3 because I didn't played it. That's what happened with me.

Now ROF's look attracts a lot of casual players. So probably there will be a lot of them willing to try out other flight sims.
Since ROF I bought, CSF3, OFF, IL 2 1946 (expecting Canvas Knight) and I'm looking for BOBII because there a lot of guys in this thread that are saying nice thing about it.

Will I be a flight simmer hard core player? No. I just love games that can create a good immersion feeling.

By the way, speaking about immersion, Elite is commemorating it's 25th anniversary.
http://elite.frontier.co.uk/

Understood. Good post, SimonC.

I searched for WW1 sims a few times over the years since rb3, but didnt find anything that jumped out in the results of the search.
I saw a blurb about RoF, and bought it (I think it was right at the launch). Waiting for it to arrive, I saw posts on OFF in the forums here, and had to do a search to find out what "off" was.
Found their site, and ordered OFF right away (and CFS3, and some pedals, and TIR5).

I think the search results are to blame, because I would have bought OFF long ago, had I known it was out there.

I stopped playing RoF about a month ago. Too frustrating on too many fronts, the most of which being the joystick sensitivity and lack of control. Basically, the designers of RoF made a sim that = no fun.

That's the stink of it.

Am I "extremely disappointed with RoF"? No.
Am I majorly disappointed with RoF? Yes.

I have it though, and it's nice to fly if you dont have to shoot at anything. heh! It's a sim, not a combat sim.

Bah.

I think the saddest thing about rof is that they spent money on it. Rof was supposed to be a commercial game built by an official development team with access to the tools of a modern gaming company with official hyped marketing. It's very sad to see it fall at the first gate.

if you know anybody who went for rof initially, but would like something else, introduce them to OFF, and the other ww1 sims out there. There's plenty of other great ww1 and ww2 games available.

I enjoy ROF, sure its a little limited campaign wise presently and they are always going on about no dogfight servers, i have not even done MP with it yet so does not really bother me.

Got OFF for the capaign as it looked so good in the videos.
Unfortunately it runs like a bad slide show, tried all the tweaks etc and no great improvement even with sliders down at 1.

I will continue to try and get OFF working correctly, may have to dig out an old machine as CFS3 used to work fine years ago when it came out, it just does not like my modern kit even though it manages ROF on max.

Luckily i have ROF and First Eagles to keep me going.

If they moved OFF to the ROF engine or even First Eagles, that would be even better.

Del

Another magically created new expert user with 3 total posts, bashing RoF like this ...

NO, unfortunately there aren't "plenty of great ww1 and ww2 games available" out there. As already said on another thread, because of 'users' like you i won't buy OFF. Anyway, who cares, it seems you are trying to attract another class of clientele. Not simmers. Man i hate RoF fanboys, but 'envy' people who spread lies to detract people are even worse. "was supposed to be", "hyped marketing", "see it fall at the first gate" - shows more about what you want than the truth imho.

Yes, i had a bad day so far

I don`t think anyone here would want to see RoF fail, I have two copies, one I purchased, and one was a gift. RoF is doing a good job of failing all by itself, you can`t expect a company to put out an unfinished product as RoF is and florish. The DRM alone has turned away a vast majority of potential buyers. I`m not happy with it at all. They talk about very few connection problems on their end, that coin has two sides, if you have trouble on your end, your out of business too. I found that out a couple of weeks back, when this area was racked by heavy thunderstorms. I could`nt play Rof, so I played others that did`nt require online connectivity.

Neoqb needs to seriously address the DRM problem, as well as RoF`s other pitfalls, no dynamic campaign, single missions don`t impress, and they need a lot of work on the MP end. One of the biggest things is the time set of the planes, I guess that was done so the U. S. would be represented the last year of the conflict. Not very much of that ground war is represented, and you don`t feel like you belong to a squad of pilots, let alone a huge conflict such as the great war.

RoF needs a lot of work if it`s going to make it, and I don`t mean more planes, it needs work on it`s structure, and content, it has eyecandy, but that is about all. I`d like to see them make it, but until they can correct it`s numerous faults I`ve shelved it.

Hi,

i do not want to see RoF "fail" as well, and i do not think it already has, or will.
I have not much time and only played RoF at a friend's PC yet (but downloaded the Demeo, and will - if Paypal works now - buy it right away), but i already think that the "flying" as such is the best in any sim up to now.

I do not like fanboys both sides, who are blind on one eye. Hell, why not own both sims - for WW1 flight sim fans those are good times. There is still the revamped Red Baron 3d, "First Eagles" and "Richthofen skies". And now sims like OFF, and RoF ! I have seen so much ww1 sims go down the drain, and now the last iteration of Kots at least made it to the shelves in RoF shape - good !

... but ..

But, and this is a big BUT: Most of the hard core WW1 simmers have observed the "Knights of the sky" development (eating up the "Sikorsky" WW1 flight sim in its course), which then became "Rise of Flight". In this KOTS there were so much promised planes, i remember 15 of those, and a campaign. Now when the successor Rise of Flight hit the shelves it was ... well ... sobering. Two Planes ? OK, they made it four ... but no dynamic campaign, no single play to write home about, and additionally to this "lean production sim" now this online DRM model ?!

It stinks to the heavens. Why not right away make a browser game, and pay for every minute - like this Window$Live crap which is planned - lend a type-writer and pay for every minute. Can anyone who does not work in this industry really like this idea ? I ask you !

It is a clever idea, once you owned a mechanical typewriter, then they made it all "virtual", buy a 2000 $ machine AND a printer, AND the expensive software that turns your Cray supercomputer into something that is able to at least type a letter, and the next step is you do not own anything anymore, but pay for the "service" all the time. To hell with it ! Now THAT is communism for me LOL, only that the dispossession is done by enterprises, not government.

BUT, unfortunately this is where the whole industry seems to go. If the RoF team had announced this plain and simple - why do you even need some software on your PC when it's changed and updated every time you log in ? You only need a keyboard and an internet connection - it's all going playstation.

Having to be online and pay for planes that should be in the sim is not my cup of tea. I have looked forward to another kind of sim, the successor of RedBaron, or "Knights of the sky" that is, in a new version. If they would have at least added some 10-12 planes, call it 1917, and then sell additional ones for 1916, or 1918. But now this is just an incomplete product - sorry but it is !

Well, this is all just - sobering.

@Laser: i said i do not like fanboys, and i also i do not like people who work for one sim and then post in "independent" threads how good their product is. Both sides crap, yeah, agreed (guess it's called "viral marketing"). I also appreciate what you did for RB, but again this BUT: If you do not at least play this sim (OFF) just because of its own breed of fanboys, like i did not like to buy RoF before because of those other fanboys (or paid spokesmen), you really miss a lot. IMHO OFF ist at present the real succesor of RedBaron, and it will at least take a year until Rof will come even close.

Well, whatever makes your boat float,
have fun,
Catfish

catfish, putski, yes.
Yes, the industry is heading that way.
DRM is the biggest problem, but with server issues, a lack of aircraft, and a general lack of the story of ww1, there's not enough there.
Rof bashing is unfortunately becoming a practice for an increasing number of rof customers.

Hi,

Hey Matt, thanks again for the wonderful OFF musical theme - whatever you got for this it was not enough :-)


The thing is - as i see it - with this kind of DRM, pay per use and forced online crap the software industry is declaring war to its customers. There are probably enough of the usual young idiots who will buy anything as long as it is hip or you can show off to your friends/neighbour with it. Think of Playstation, the most recent mobile phones and so on.
Older people think twice before buying anything, and those are - unfortunately, for the software industry (but not only) - usually those who have more money.

So it is generally the question - IF the industry turns towards this DRM and online way should i support it and help them? I am already guilty with RoF because i like flight sims and the choice is not really a big one when it comes to early flying. I think FSX's flight model is a lot worse than that of OFF - but then there will be no flight sim from MS at all for a longer time or so it seems ..

You can bet i will never ever buy a M$ Office package that is only available online - make that Quark express, CAD programs whatever. And, like Laser said, when i hear people saying at the local RoF forum how they like this DRM and online requirement ... this is so obvious B$ and at the same time embarrassing - also for NeoQb.
In the new reports it seems Neoqb is on the brink of turning completely to online gaming, and sinking single gameplay and campaign. I hope this is not true.

Greetings,
Catfish

That's not communism, that's wild capitalism.
I'm 44 years old, I live in a small country in Europe, Portugal. I've lived under a dictatorship and live now in a democracy with two parlements. But what I see in this last years, was a silent coup d'etat done by bankers and by big enterprises. They're,as usual, corrupting power in order to approve legislation for reducing and controlling our rights.
That's in the name of greed.
You're statement is pure truth, and a sign of what a future world we will have.

Sorry for the off-topic.

Yep, and some of you might not like Michael Moore, but go see his latest film on capitalism and how it has been twisted into exploitation. It's an eye opener. watch the trailer `Capitalism: A Love Story'

And it's curious that you a person that don't own OFF (and from it appears don't plan to) comes here to BASH a personal oppinion of someone that OWNS BOTH sims (OFF and RoF)! If that isn't being a RoF fanboy, well I don't know what it is? Maybe you're a RoF FANATIC instead!!
I won't go here comparing OFF with RoF mainly because I don't have RoF and sincerelly I don't plan to buy RoF either simply and only because of that online check thing everytime you want to play RoF even in Single player, which is simply ridiculous! And to me because of that "online check" in RoF, OFF is already much superior than RoF.
Yes, like many said there's a place for those sims (OFF and RoF) and many others installed in a PC BUT to me a GAME that has a system which forces you to connect to the internet everytime you want to play even for offline/single player play it simply means a NO-BUY for me!

Well saying "magically created new expert user" implies there's some kind of super secret plot, a slur against OFF perhaps? Anyway as a "magically created user" I enjoy ROF in multiplayer and do not want to see it fail. We want people to realise there is more than 1 sim is all, nothing more. To say you won't buy OFF because of types of people doesn't sound reasonable either but hey each to his own.

Personally as a big fan of WW1 air combat I'd be NUTS not to buy RoF, OFF and First Eagles, and oddly I did buy them all.

Oh yes, i was bashing 'someone's' opinion - a specially created new account of 'someone's' who owns both RoF and OFF, is already an expert in this, and spreads lies in his first posts. That's what i saw already many times in this forum and in the RoF one. And that is what i am reacting. And i read the old OFF forums and the general praise only atmosphere was too dominant. Like everyone playing at violin to show visitors how good that stuff is. I am not saying new things here, but of course you see only what you want to see.

And if you'd follow my posts at ROF forums, i am one of those strongly against the 'online-only' protection scheme. But i can't care less about what you think of me.

Again, what i see on RoF forums, coming from OFF, are people trying to bash RoF and to vehemently announce that 'there is another good sim' which is OFF and why people don't see that. Yes, you are on a mission.

Laser,

First, can you proof that matmilne guy is someone who created an account just on purpose to bash RoF here in the OFF forum? You will excuse me but this "smells me" like paranoia from your part!

Secondly, everyone as the right to be disapointed with a game (no matter what game is!!). Judging from the size of 8 pages of this topic (and not only this topic) it seems there's a BUNCH of people which bought RoF and are VERY disapointed with it! For instance if I had bought RoF and knowing what I know now about RoF, that:
- It makes an online check everytime you play, even while playing in single player.
- It doesn't have a campaign
- It has a very limited set of flyable airplanes (4, is that correct?)
- We have to pay for EVERY new aircraft in order to complete this uncomplete sim with it's limited set of flyable airplanes.
I would be EXTREMELLY pissed of with this game (RoF) and I would have had the EXACT same oppinion as that matmilne guy (and NOT only)!

Thirdly, I'm "glad" that I haven't bought RoF but as opposed to you, I don't plan to buy RoF NOT because of some fanatics oppinions (BTW, I'm willing to bet that there are MUCH MORE RoF fanatics than OFF fanatics!!) but because of the RoF gameplay features or the lack of them to be more precise.

Finally, I still wonder what a guy like you that doesn't have OFF, doesn't plan to buy OFF and apparently isn't interested in OFF either, does posting here?? Speaking of "hidden agendas", it seems to me that you're probably the (only) one here that has a hidden agenda. I could be wrong, but this is my oppinion...


P.S- I don't follow your posts at ROF forums since I don't have or plan to buy RoF so there's no point for me to go to the RoF forum (and specially posting there).

Because i saw this before. For the rest, i don't care what you smell.

Usually it's only praise and not much complaint, because there isn't much thing to complain but to praise. There are no concerted posts or threads as far as I know.
Some people just sees conspiracies in each corner. For some Neil Armstrong was not even on the Moon. But it's like you said people only see what want to see and think what want to think.

Best regards

thanks catfish

everybody smells of something, that's a widely believed fact.

should the developers of rof, and rof purchasers not have told anybody there was a new ww1 flight game around? so telling people that there are other games out there is fine, especially in a thread for people who've bought rof and are specifically looking for something else to replace it.
the early reviews of rof back in september 08, spelled out the various problems and issues that have unfolded. i like to think of it as a valuable reminder to customers to learn to read between the lines. that's why i posted in this specific thread, to remind those who were dissapointed in rof, that the writing was on the wall long before they purchased it, and not to be too dissapointed as there are plenty of other games out there.

there are two main problems for online drm: the short tenure of game companies, and server instabilities, with a tertiary flaw that the longer a person is online the greater the risk of computer infection. i called the switch from dvd to blue ray a year earlier than it was announced, i will state clearly now that always-online drm will start be replaced with something else. probably in about 3-5 years. it is just possible that holographic encryption will return as it can be easily shipped with the product and form a physical encryption that's difficult to copy without proper manufacturing equipment, but don't call me on that. In any event and either way, i think key-code encryption will be with us for a very long time, both for online and offline games as one of the cheapest to implement systems available to all developers big and small.

So catfish, not supporting a company just because of their method of copy protection doesn't matter too much as always-online systems will eventually be replaced in the future anyway. there are plenty of other more vital reasons, not to purchase the products of some companies, and that decision is up to the individual customer.

and yes, i also think there is an alarming mixture of communism and capitalism. modern companies seem to have borrowed elements from both contrasting systems. sometimes leading to record sales, followed by a messy collapse. it's hard to tell where that'll go, the world seems in limbo at the moment.

Hi Guys - strange how everyone gets their knickers in a twist over sims...

But I would like to say that Matt Milne is far from some 'magical poster' - he is in fact the man that composed, created and recorded the main music themes for OFF.... for free.
He is a magical composer of note.

Matt thanks very much - great music - and have fun!

Pleased to see you are now into flight sims!

Best

WM

OBD Software

Sorry I see people from all over, RoF, OFF owners, and many who own both, commenting on what they think. If you think we control the forums by special secret squirrels then you are wrong.

At least most people commenting own both (like myself). And a few like you, only own one.

Hello,

well if we go back to post #1 ...

"Extremely disapppinted with RoF ... because of this I have been reading up on OFF. The game looks well done. The graphics look better then IL2 and the number of airplanes seems to match as well. ..."

The first poster with some 300+ posts did know what he was talking about or so i think. As well some complaints here do not target the initial poster, but someone else, so it all does not make too much sense.

All i can say even if you own RoF you will not be disappointed with OFF. I'm the living example lol.


From Pol:
" ... you think we control the forums by special secret squirrels then you are wrong. ..."

haha got you.



"You should have bought a squirrel" LOL

Greetings,
Catfish


P.S. @Matt Milne: thanks for your well-thought answers, i do feel much better now regarding the (probably fading) DRM model. And you are perfectly right about what we in Europe call locust-capitalism. There seems to be no long-term thinkng, it has all been jettisoned as old-school, if you even dare to propose customer reaction at a board meeting you're instantly out. I know what i'm talking about. It always was money, but this "new deal #2" has gone to new dimensions.

I for one am glad I bought ROF and a couple of their planes, was one of the first to do so. It's just that there isn't much there to hold my attention for very long, so I don't play it much, OFF is much more interesting and engrossing, but that's just me. I know some love ROF, but they seem to be only into the flight simulation part, and don't have that much interest in the whole rest of what I think should be part of what makes up a really good simulation/game, it was what made RedBaron so successful and what Over Flanders Fields is also aiming at, and achieving, and very well.

There are obviously a lot of disappointed buyers and potential buyers of ROF who were expecting a lot more and feel that they haven't come though and that their methods are unclear, confusing and uncertain, hence, the complaints and discussions. I still think that most would love to see them offer as much as OFF does, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen, or that it will take a long, long time, if ever.

My two cents, again.

Great to know that.
I've to say something about Matt's musical theme. It's one of the most fantastic and well achieved musical game themes I've ever heard. (PERIOD)
When I launched the game for the first time, and heard the theme, I had just had to listen the all theme until the end, before doing anything else.
I'm sure you are a professional composer.
I bet OFF team are very proud to have you for producing their main themes. I would.

Locust Capitalism? So do I have to be a communist to like OFF, or is that optional?

Bashing RoF in order to elevate OFF. Tsk, tsk, guys.

I suspect that there are more than a small number of ROFers who've come to try OFF on the basis that ROF (in its present state) does not deliver what they wanted or expected. I'd further guess that many were hoping that ROF would be a true successor to the venerable RB3D, so it's quite understandable that they might find their way to OFF on that basis alone.

From what I've read on SimHQ threads, the most pungent comments about ROF do come from dissatisfied owners of the game, so it hardly seems the case that it's OFF owners trying to big up OFF by denigrating ROF. You only have to look at ROF fora here to see that there's serious misgivings about ROF, coming from ROFers.

Well the world's not prohesied to end until 2012 this time, so the ROF developers might still have a bit of time to bring along their ideas (can't really stop that until doomsday that is).

"Well the world's not prohesied to end until 2012 this time, so the ROF developers might still have a bit of time to bring along their ideas."

Indeed, and I wish them luck in bringing their creation to its full fruition, but there's clearly a body of players whose patience is apparently already exhausted.

Maybe Neoqb is considering moving forward with only 30,000 players?

But "exhausted", that's a thought, though I doubt posters here on SimHQ ever get exhausted.

Whoa. I haven't checked up on this thread in weeks! 9 pages?! This has to be the longest thread I ever started!

Edit: 10 pages now.

See, who's exhausted!

The entire point of this thread was simple:

Is OFF the type of flight I would enjoy?

I bought RoF believing it was something more, it wasn't, it was/is greatly lacking in elements I expect in a combat flight simulator. Period.

Through out the early stages of this thread many other have chimed in to say they feel the same way about RoF. They too decided to try OFF, at least some of them. The thread was very civil and constructive, even helpful.

If you wish to be critical of OFF, please, do so!! Just like people have the right to be critical of RoF. However it confuses me to no end, why someone would make personal assaults against other posters who they disagree with.

30,000 players? Maybe Neoqb retired some where to a beach.

The cheerleaders have entered the building!

I'm sure they are seriously considering purchasing OFF to lend a more balanced approach to their enlightening and frightfully amusing comments

Could be wrong but