A SimHQ exclusive review on the just-announced product from Logitech.
Reviewed by "Chunx"

http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_153a.html

Having just bought a G25 I'm a bit annoyed its replaced already
But the loss of the sequential shifter does lessen the pain

I've only found the H-shifter really worthwhile for TDU.
And Xbox 360 compatability for the next one would be REALLY good, so long as they don't make it look and feel like a toy! My G25 can last till then.

So good review, completely agree.

Cheers,
Keith

Well written and thorough as always Chunx.

I'm surprised they took away the sequential shift. Big disappointment. I understand you can use the paddles, but on my G25, I use them for other things. After all, shifting belongs on the shifter.

On the LED display, I find myself asking "What's the point?" I guess it's cool and glitzy, but I think you get the same thing up on the screen of the sim you are driving, in most cases. So why put it on the wheel? Another distraction from the road, which I don't see as necessary or even an added "feature".

I'm glad to see it comes bundled with rFactor, and obviously they made big strides with the pedals.

Still, I'm happy with my G25.

Damn and i thought my NASCAR wheel was cool. They have leather wrapping and aluminium? pedals Dang.

WOW Chunx... you keep releasing reviews and articles like this, I'm going to have to go back and get a edumication... fantastic writing, good layout, screens, and diagrams... your really starting to mess with the review grading curve here at SimHQ lately.

A very thorough article. Well done and thanks a lot!

From a technical point of view I understand why the sequential shifter had to go, given the reasons described in the article. Nonetheless, this could easily become the major gripe users will have with it. I use the H-shifter rarely, e.g. when trying a Porsche 914 in the 1970 World Sports Car Championship 1.0 mod for rfactor, otherwise I usually go for sequential shifting - if I don't drive with autoclutch anyway, as in the current SimHQ F1 series. But if Logitech had kicked the H-shifter and only went for sequential shifting there would be an outcry too. All in all, I can imagine the developers had very heated meetings about this.

I partially agree with 20mm regarding the LED display. I would have no use for it, but as Chunx pointed out in his article, it might be useful for those who run games in other than cockpit views. PS3 games come to mind here. If I had the G27 and found the LEDs distracting, I would cut a black duct tape stripe into form and the distraction would be gone. But then, I might even like them.

So according to Logitech the G25 shifter won't work with a G27, but I wonder if the new pedals can work with a G25? Regarding improvement they seem to be the best feature to me, apart from the 6 buttons on the wheel.

Regarding the internal helical gears I hope Logitech won't run into trouble with this in the long run, once the wheel is in mass-production. The tolerances for these gears must be much tighter and hopefully they succeed with this.

Having received a G25 just in March this year I have no plans to upgrade though. Besides, even if it (hoepfully never) malfunctions I still have a fully functional Logitech Formula Force EX in reserve, so I don't plan to upgrade in the foreseeable future. If I had no G25 yet I would wait a few months how it fares on the market and then decide. The price would play a role too, as the G25 will be cheaper and a proven wheel as well.

No sequential shift is a deal breaker for me. I likely will be in the market for a replacement for my Driving Force Pro in the next 6+ months and at this point the Fanatec 911 wheels are the main contenders with the G27 now out of the running.

Alan, why not pick up a G25 before they run out? They're down to about $220.

20mm, the LEDs would be best in a sim cockpit where you're seated in a more prone position, like an open-wheel race car. If you're racing in an upright seated position, they are just a trick-looking gimmick, IMO.

Purolator and Magnum, thank you for the kind comments.

Stormtrooper, yes the G25 and G27 are very nice. Hooked to my desk, they look like slick furniture and not some plasticy, Fischer-Price toy. That is indeed Leather and either steel or aluminium for the metal bits. They're nicely executed products inside and out. Because the G27 is an evolutionary product and not entirely new, I don't think anyone would resonably expect people happily using a G25 run out and drop another $300 on a G27. But newcomers will be looking at them, as well as people who wear out their G25s, and need a replacement. You can't argue with the build quality in these wheels, and the G27 certainly builds on experiences gained manufacturing the G25.

I do hope everyone understood that I think the G27, like the G25 before it, is a superb product. I liked just about everything about the G27, aside from not having my beloved sequential shifter. That said, the H-pattern was very fun to use when driving the 1970 WSC mod in rFactor. I can understand and accept that the G27 isn't Xbox compatible, although I know that Logitech will pay a price for that in the marketplace.

Did all of you understand where I stood on the G27 review? Please share your thoughts here.

A great review Chunx and I felt that your point about the G27 being a very good wheel came across very well.

Depending on what a potential buyer wants from a wheel, it could be that some would never miss the sequential shift function. The leather seems to be of a quality that is a bit nicer than on the G25.

I've had my G25 since it became available and it is still like new. I've had absolutely no trouble with it at all.

With the price difference between the G25 and the G27, it looks like I could save some $200 by opting for the G25, I'd be leaning towards getting a G25 again, as I'm not sure Logitech have given me enough reasons to favour the G27.

The LED lights are nice but absolutely non-essential to me, always driving in the cockpit view, never driving anything, that doesn't have a proper cockpit view.

More buttons on the steering wheel are very nice and I wouldn't mind having those, but I find the spokes on the G27 have become visually a bit to cluncky for my tastes and, I've learned to live with what I have.

Recently I applied Niels Heusinkvelds PAD; Pedal Adjustment Kit to adjust the pedals towards being better able to heel and toe, so that's fixed.

Interestingly, InsideSimRacing claim that their G27 felt better and had a smaller dead-zone around the center than the G25, the wheel you reviewed appears to have a larger dead-zone.

Personally I think there is either a difference in the individual wheels, or a difference in hardware otherwise, as I've never felt the often mentioned dead-zone in my G25.

Thank you for the compliment. I am glad people are enjoying the review.

I intentionally did not use the term "dead zone" because FFB isn't 'dead' at wheel center. The FFB response is weak at wheel center. What is most noticable about this is that there is a noticable, rapid ramp-up in FFB resistance just a few degrees off center that seems to accentuate the "soft spot" in FFB response near center. It was most noticable in Race '07 (Steam), much less so in rFactor or RBR. Furthermore, only in Race '07, when driving on the straights I could feel a slight, oscillating tug left and right as the FFB motor fought itself. Again, this was only noticable in Race '07.

Had I not tried the game with Race '07 (which supports the LED function) I probably would not have commented on it, or would have commented in the opposite, as the wheel's FFB response overall is very smooth and precise. I suspect the tighter tolerances and reduced vibration of the G27's helical gears are both the reason why the FFB feels better than the G25, but also contribute to the 'soft spot' issues as the wheel interacts with Race '07. Because this "soft spot" issue appeared with Race '07, it could be that other titles will experience this "soft spot", but I didn't have time to try the game with every possible game title.

I think that, overall, people are making too much of this. As I said in the article, I was "Picking Nits" on the G27, not pointing out major flaws.

If you don't experience it in other titles, that points to it not being an inherent problem with the Logitech hardware/firmware. Rather, it may be an artefact of the way Race'07 models self-aligning torque due to mechanical/pneumatic trail and the degree to which the FFB generated is dependent on the SAT.

Another fantastic article Chunx! Love the side by side comparison.

I need to upgrade from my Momo Black in the near future and after reading the review, I'll definitely opt for the Logitech G27. The extra buttons on the steering wheel is a huge factor for me and the lack of a sequential shifter doesn't bother me too much as I use the paddle shifter most of the time anyway. Very impressed with the pedal geometry changes and the option to move the pedal face about. All in all, looks great to me!

Alan,

Agree - to a point. While it's true that the game sets the FFB parameters, it can also be how the firmware is set in the wheel, or in the drivers, or even the generic wheel settings. Obviously Race '07 was a problem, but that was also a recommended game (so I could test the LEDs). Other games are out there that I didn't get to try the G27 with (LFS, DiRT2, Race On, GTR2, etc). Having only a few short days to conduct testing, if I saw it in one place I had to comment, even if a single data point isn't a trend.

Nicely done Chunx.

Good to see they re-engineered the pedals so conclusively. I have been one of those pining for a more H&T friendly pedals. I have small feet and welcome their decision to make the pedals adjustable.

Not at all bothered with the lack of sequential mode. It was the sequential mode that broke in my first G25, causing all sorts of uncommanded gear changes...losing me quite a couple of races. To be honest, I'm glad they got rid of it. I don't have any immersion problems using H-shifter or paddles, ....so long as I can change gears effectively, it's all good.

I wonder when the G27 will reach Asian shores.


P.S. I considered getting one of those limited edition Fanatec premium wheel & pedal set, but they don't sell to folks outside USA, Europe. I asked, but got a very very belated reply from someone from their EU HQ telling me they are not in a position to support sales to Asia because they are still a very small company. They did suggest they will consider a special shipment if my order was a once-off, but I will need to pay shipping of EUR..... (they quoted a very exorbitant number which I found unreasonable because I had received larger European packages on overnight courier at much better rates). In any case, thank heavens for Logitech. At least their support is worldwide.

Great review.

Im glad Logi is continuing to develop the G25 series, I got mine when it first came out because it was anounced as a limited edition product. Still works and looks great btw.

Just a quick comment on this. While we don't control actual retail pricing, I do want to point out that in Denmark the recommended retail pricing (RRP) for the G27 is actually 100 DKK less than the RRP for the G25. While the G25 is likely to retail for less than the G27 until stocks are depleted from the channel, I don't expect that the retail price of the G27 will be as high as the RRP - at least, not for very long after launch.

Goo_

You are 100% correct. At Logitech's website the prices are quoted are:

G27 on Logitech's website: DKK 2599 / 5,2744 = $492,75
G25 on Logitech's website: DKK 2699 / 5,2744 = $511,71

I know of a legitimate retailer where I can get a G25 free of freight for DKK 1445 / 5,2744 = $274
What I don't know is what that same retailer will charge for a G27 once they get it, so my comparisons are not quite fair, I admit.

While stocks last and as long as the calculations above are valid, I'd get a G25 again should the need arise.

I do expect however my current G25 to last quite a way into the future, as noted in my earlier post, it has never given me any problems at all.

Talk about taking 1 step forward & 2 steps back, removing the sequential shift mode from the gear shift was a big mistake, that's a big disappointment to any serious race sim fan! I use that gear shift in sequential mode 99% of the time when racing on rFactor.

Ditto. I was crestfallen when I was briefed on the new product features by Logitech.

That said, recently I've been using the wheel with games and mods that don't replicate cars with a sequential floor-mounted shifter: Richard Burns Rally, rFactor's ILMS v2.77 and 1970 1970 World Sports Car Championship v1.0.

With RBR I use the paddle shifters to change gears, and use the shifter's 4th gear position as a hand brake. Using an H-pattern shifter to replicate a hand brake takes more coordination than a sequential shifter would, as the H-pattern shifter isn't spring-loaded to return to the 'off' position. With the H-pattern you have to engage 4th to trigger the hand brake, then physically place the shifter back in neutral. It takes time to learn that, but it can be done. So for Rally sims the G27 is quite an acceptable controller (altough I'd love to see future wheels include a hand-brake lever for drifting and rally).

With the ILMS v2.77 mod, I am driving the Prototype cars, which use paddle shifters. Again, the G27 is awesome, due to its smooth wheel response, precise paddle shifters and quantity of wheel-mounted buttons. If you're doing modern, paddle shifter cars like F1 or Prototypes, the G27 is again a great controller.

With the 1970 WSCC mod, the method of control is H-pattern with heel-and-toe shifting. With the firm and precise H-pattern shifter and raised pedal faces for brake and clutch, the G27 is perferable to the G25 for these types of mods.

Overall, with RBR and rFactor I am not noticing any of the 'soft spot' in FFB response near wheel center that I noted with RACE '07. That issue is now seeming more and more to be unique to that title. Overall wheel operation in the games listed above is smooth, precise and filled with nice FFB effects. I really like the G27 wheel's refinement in those titles.

Of course, driving those mods/games avoids that big hole in the G27's feature list. It's just not the same driving a GT1 or GT2 ALMS/LMS car with paddle shifters or H-pattern. In that way, Logitech has already spoiled consumers with the G25's shifting options. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it's hard to go backwards on a feature list, even if the remaining features are improved.

Chunx, can't you keep your G25 hooked up and only mount the shifter on your desk, using it in sequential mode for a handbrake and for sequential shifting? Space on the floor may get tight, but it is a possible solution for those who own both devices.

Do you mean have both the G25 and G27 plugged in at once? I don't think the Logitech drivers would work like that. Haven't tried it, though.

That said, I wouldn't ever advocate buying a second, $300 wheel just for that reason. I would advocate a specialty G25 shifter that's sold separately for the G27 (just as the Fanatec wheels offer two separate shifter units - an 'H' and a sequential). But I don't see that happening.

Hi ^^

First of all a big thanks to you Chunx for a great and well-written review!


Myself I can't afford a Xbox360, at least not after buying a G27 and a PS3
but I think it's bad that the G25/G27 isn't compatible with the Xbox

I am NOT in anyway certain if this is true:

anyway, I heard that the reason to why the G25/G27 can't be used with the Xbox is Microsoft's fault
If this is true, they're supposed to deliberately limit the high-end (if not the entire) market of wheels to Fanatech
The limited market of wheels from other manufacturers would then boost Microsofts own market of wheels

If this is just anti-Microsoft propaganda, then I really apologize

But what else could it be that prevents Logitech from making it compatible with the Xbox360?

I've heard that as well. Given MS's track record it would seem plausible. But according to some, it's way more complicated than that. Here's what Logitech's Chris Pate said over at their website when answering the same question:


It would seem that in this case, the production of cross-platform wheels is being throttled by Corporate Lawyers and IP Licensing Fees. I'd be surprised if a big company like Logitech hasn't investigated cross-platform wheel functionality, but that's just speculation on my part.

I think the situation is clearly driven by legal and corporate wrangling because I've never gotten the vibe that it's too much of a technological challenge, and the existance of the Fanatec products seem to bare that out. There's no way Logitech would overlook the potential profits at stake when making a wheel that's compatible with the dominant console gaming platform.

It does seem odd that a boutique wheel manufacturer with limited production resources would be the only company capable of licensing and making a cross-platform wheel, doesn't it? I'll be there's an interesting story of corporate intrigue here, and perhaps someday we'll know "the rest of the story".

Yes, that's what I meant. I don't see why the drivers wouldn't support that; you can connect multiple Logitech devices of other sorts (e.g. Strike Force 3D joystick + MOMO) and select between them in a dropdown menu found in the Logitech Gaming Software.

Hello everyone !

Good review, thanks for the pics and comparison with G25.

I have 2 regrets though :

- almost nothing about PS3
- and too much complains about xbox 360 compatibility.

Official response from Logitech (about G25, but the same goes with G27) :

First, at this point in time, Logitech is not licensed by Microsoft to develop a force feedback steering wheel for Xbox 360 - only corded controllers. The DriveFX wheel is, effectively, an Xbox 360 controller that is shaped like a steering wheel and has a force feedback motor in place of the standard vibration motors.

Second, even if Logitech were licensed to make a force feedback wheel for Xbox 360, there are significant technical limitations which prevent these wheels from functioning on on Xbox 360. The Xbox 360 features controller and force feedback architectures (XID, device-based force feedback playback) that are significantly different from the way our wheels work on PC, PS2, or PS3 (HID, host-based force feedback playback). It is not possible to enable Xbox 360 functionality with a software or firmware update.

Logitech understands that our customers wish to use our steering wheels on multiple gaming platforms. We have made significant efforts to ensure that our PC wheel drivers support our PS2 wheels, and our PS2 force feedback SDK supports our PC wheels. PS3 games that support Logitech force feedback also support the same list of wheels. At this point in time, these are the only three platforms with which it is possible to have a single force feedback wheel be compatible. Were it possible to effect a firmware or software change to enable Xbox 360 compatibility with our existing wheels, we would do so. Unfortunately, however, until Logitech is licensed by Microsoft to design and manufacture force feedback wheels, no Logitech force feedback wheels will function on Xbox 360.

Source

I guess that Microsoft prefer selling their own device...

wesker,

I only had one short opportunity (2 hours) to drive the G27 with the PS3, and the only title available to me was GT5 Prologue. And the person with that game hadn't unlocked any other cars yet. Due to my lack of exposure to the PS3 and lack of options available to me in that pay-ware demo, I was unable to get a well-rounded look at it, using only the lower level cars. By the time I left I was able to unlock a Mitsu Lancer Evo X, and that's about it. My apologies for that.

From what I saw with those lower tier cars, the wheel felt fine, plugged right into the PS3 and was easy to configure, and worked as-advertised. FFB effects were a bit on the light side - which was expected given the lower performance of the entry level cars in GT5. But overall the wheel felt pretty good, provided FFB cues and made the car track accuratley and respond predictably. Due to space limitations in the article and lack of testing options with the PS3, the info presented was a little sparse.

I guess if you're a PS3 owner, you probably don't care much about Xbox 360 compatibility. But there are a lot of Xbox 360 owners who were hoping for another option when it comes to shopping for a wheel controller for that system (especially with Forza 3 coming soon), and they were all a bit disappointed when the G27 didn't come with compaibility for that platform. Since the PS3 functionality was as-expected and matched up with PC performance, it received less reporting than other aspects.

And yes, I was aware that Xbox 360 uses a different FFB achitechture than PC or PS3. While that's the reason a G27 won't function on an Xbox, it's not the reason the G27 was made without compatibility for both achitechtures. Ultimately that lack of function is to the reason I quoted above.

Thank you very much for your detailed answer about GT5P Chunx

Now i only have to wait for the G27 to be available in France, have contacted Logitech and they'll email me when it's the case.