#2837333 - 08/08/09 11:12 PM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: Gunloon]
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,380
FlyRetired
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,380
|
Gunloon, I'm so very happy that ROF has allowed you to enjoy some of the sensation and joy of flight again.
My dad flew CG-4A Waco troop gliders into combat during WW2, and mom was a pilot and Navy Wave who taught instrument flying to cadets. I took up flying in the seventies, first in open air, cable-braced, ultralight aircraft. Like you Gunloon, there is a joy in flying, which is something a person never will forget.
Flying in ROF is unlike any WWI sim before it, or any other hobby flight simulator made yet, because many of those who contributed to it recognized what open-cockpit flying was actually like.
|
|
#2837337 - 08/08/09 11:15 PM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: Gunloon]
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,890
Warbirds
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,890
|
Thanks for the great replies! My real experience is small but it showed me that flight sims are really lacking in the "real flight" area.
I was lucky enough to fly my buddies 150 several times and after my first time up in the small plane I went straight home and tried to tweak fx to feel similar. I jacked up the turblance and wind to simulate the rough, bouncing and pitching of the small plane but could not come close. Flying the 150 showed me that a real light plane is alot of work on a hot, windy July day. Also the sound is tough to duplcate, we wore headphones and I still had a hard time hearing my friend so when I got home I jacked up the volume and even that could not be set high enough with the small speakers I had then (now I have Klipsh 7.1 system and a Velodyne sub and can almost duplicate the wind and engine noise of the 150).
I started this post to find out if this sim could get me closer and thanks to you people I know it will get me as close a possible.
Last edited by Warbirds; 08/08/09 11:35 PM.
"A time when America was great,,when the chrome was thick and the women were straight" - Micheal Savage
"If you really want to experience flight in this life then you have to strap a DC-3 to your ass." - Buffalo Joe McBryan President & Captain Buffalo Airways
|
|
#2837348 - 08/08/09 11:50 PM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: womenfly2]
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,790
Smokin_Hole
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,790
|
13,200 hours but who's counting. Even though I still fly professionaly it's been years since my days in the Maule, Pawnee, Cessna 120, Christen Eagle, and clipped-wing Cub. The itch is as scratched as it will likely ever be given a limited bank account and life. This sim will be a great one. IL2 shouldn't be discounted outright as you see much of it's DNA in RoF. But man this sim is something else! Truely the essence of fight is mostly there. And looking down on a furball of dozens of biplanes turning with the sun glinting off their wings and chasing low and watching airplane parts fall to the ground like autumn leaves. Sliding my head far to the left on landing to catch the slightest yaw before it progresses into an uncorrectable groundloop. Pulling straight up with insufficient energy and the machine stops; silence, hold the controls because I haven't a clue what the plane will do as gravity wins-- how often did I make that mistake in gliders? Flying along twisty rivers below treetops just as I did when I was a kid. The ugly reality of formation flying--that wind and wake and pilot imperfection make it look nothing like the pretty 2-D view seen from the ground at airshows. How real are the flight models? I don't know...I really expected less stability and inadequate rudder authority, particularly on rotary designs. I thought these planes would be harder. After reading some of the above, pehaps that was exagerated. Makes since in hindsight because many historical descriptions were written by highly inexperienced and poorly trained pilots whose element was horseback.
I fly this sim in awe of the work behind it.
|
|
#2837410 - 08/09/09 02:39 AM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: Smokin_Hole]
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 548
Toadvine
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 548
Seattle
|
I fly this sim in awe of the work behind it.
This is how I look at RoF too. In spite of its gameplay short comings what it does deliver is deep and meaningful. I don't see how anyone who truly has a love and interest in these WW1 aircraft can be bored with this game. Like Gunloon said it has only been out here in the west for a little over a month!
I've talked and flown a bit with some on MP too, and I'm still seeing people who have trouble just starting an engine, or who can barely get off the ground without the physics helpers, engine help and so on when they find themselves in a server with these options turned off, and are still frying engines because they haven't learned to manage the mixture, radiator or RPMs.
I have to say I find it a bit ironic that folks are getting so wound up about the (so far) lack of content in ROF when so many have yet to master basic airman skills even the poorly trained pilots of the era represented had to have. It seems to me that this is often very much a case of putting the cart before the horse.
[MF] Gunloon
I am in training mode too. I still fly with the mixture and radiator options off, but the other flight realism options I leave on. I thought I don't want the hassle of hitting buttons for keeping the radiator and fuel mixture set, but it is another part of the gameplay open to me that I haven't explored yet. I am not a pilot but my dad was. I grew up around airplanes and pilots. I was born shortly after WW2 and I turned 61 this week. My dad flew in the Army air force during the war. He flew the B17 out of North Africa against the Italians and Germans. Also he said he flew the P 38 Lightning, although he said it was a great fighter he didn't say he ever took it into combat, but the B17 he did. He wasn't big on war stories and I didn't pressed him for them very often, but I asked a couple of times. He told me when they were flying the B17 it was common to chew gum. He said being in the air things were so intense and his mouth would get so dry that the gum would stick to his teeth so that he couldn't chew it. He told me about the times he had to take off the communication headphones because he didn't want to hear the cries of the guys in the other bombers going down in flames. He said the Italians really were not into fighting and he would see them bail out before the first shot was fired. The Germans were a different story. When you saw those iron crosses coming at you, said my dad, you knew you were in for a fight! They fought hard right down to the bitter end and never gave up. He had a lot of regard for the Germans. The whole world was against them and they still almost won, he told me. Then he added, they probably could have if someone besides that nut Hitler was running the show. I remember years ago when I was a kid watching a TV show, old news reels they use to air about WW2. I made the comment, I think the Germans had the best looking uniforms. Oh, he chimed in, no question about it! LoL Growing up in CA my dad kept up his flying. We couldn't afford our own plane but he belonged to a flying club out of San Carlos that had an air strip and a selection of planes you could rent and take out. It was common for him to take me along to practice his take offs and landings. I don't remember the exact model of the plane, but it was always some kind of single prop Cessna. Sitting in the co pilot seat I would read off the preflight check list for him; mixture full rich, master switch on, etc. on down the list until he would lean out the window and holler, Clear! and the prop would turn over. I remember one time were were up in the sky and there were beautiful cumulus clouds here and there. Can we go over and get close to one? We headed over for one and were going to fly right into it. Then all of a sudden coming right for us, an airplane pops out of the damn cloud! It was close enough to see the prop stirring up the cloud as he busted through. The closest thing we ever did to stunt flying was the maneuver my dad pulled to get out of his way! We banked hard to the left with the nose down! It happened so fast I don't think the other pilot even made an attempt to change course. We stayed away from clouds after that!
|
|
#2837484 - 08/09/09 08:06 AM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: Koriel]
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 967
ft
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 967
400' MSL
|
I wrote a reply to the pitch sensitivity issue. As it was off-topic and grew significantly, I started a separate topic on the issue instead and suggest interested parties provide their input there.
|
|
#2837631 - 08/09/09 04:24 PM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: Freycinet]
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 394
Jimko
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 394
Vancouver Island, BC
|
Having been a 'copter passenger' in the 60's (ancient history) for a couple of years is as close as I can come to any daily real-life flying experience. I had some exciting and some scary times bouncing around at low altitudes.
In one sense I have to really envy those of you who have managed the flight controls as pilots since you have that 'real life' experience. But, on the other hand, I guess I don't have the disadvantage of comparing sim flight with actual flight so I can be happily immersed (and happily ignorant), believing that the sim is a reasonably good flight experience given the lack of g-forces and other effects. FFB stick and my "Battlechair" give me some feeling of the flight sensations like wheels rolling and lifting off, flack bursts, and engine vibrations. That's as good as it gets for me.
However, the comments from real-life pilots are most interesting and it's encouraging to hear confirmation of how favourably ROF compares to real-life flight characteristics. I'm enjoying these posts immensely.
Jimko
"The older we are, the better we were!"
|
|
#2837658 - 08/09/09 05:13 PM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: Jimko]
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 475
Lucky812
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 475
Corpus Christi, TX
|
10,000+ Hours Former airshow pilot (Su-26, MiG-17, Stearman) Flown similar era aircraft (Canuck Jenny(4 aileron), Taylor J-2, OX-5 powered Waco)
This is a fun sim, but I have two problems with the feel of the aircraft; pitch and trim.
The pitch is way too sensitive and would agree with the other comments on that subject. The roll rate "seems" accurate.
The trim issue is more of a concern. While these aircraft did not have pilot adjusted trim they could be adjusted on the ground. These adjustment would be made from the pilots input. I would like to be able to adjust the trim setting in the GUI (or even in a ini type file) to suit my flying style.
i7 2600K ASUS GTX580 46' LED Bose Speakers TM Warthog (CH Products, Logitech G-940 and Cougar are gathering dust) TrackIR 4 w/Vector VAC
|
|
#2837949 - 08/10/09 05:26 AM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: Lucky812]
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,092
HotTom
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,092
Phoenix, AZ, USA
|
10,000+ Hours Former airshow pilot (Su-26, MiG-17, Stearman) Flown similar era aircraft (Canuck Jenny(4 aileron), Taylor J-2, OX-5 powered Waco)
This is a fun sim, but I have two problems with the feel of the aircraft; pitch and trim.
The pitch is way too sensitive and would agree with the other comments on that subject. The roll rate "seems" accurate.
The trim issue is more of a concern. While these aircraft did not have pilot adjusted trim they could be adjusted on the ground. These adjustment would be made from the pilots input. I would like to be able to adjust the trim setting in the GUI (or even in a ini type file) to suit my flying style. Wow! Some of you guys with 5-digit hours humble my brief experience 40-something years ago as a private fixed-wing pilot (and a lot of unofficial rotary time when flying with pilot buddies in the Army). Most of my flying was in Colorado where it can be quite (often very) windy and the buffeting in RoF feels very genuine. I do wish they would get those wind socks working because taking off and landing with the wind in the light Nieuports can be really ugly. You are wrong on the trim issue, at least in many of the British planes. Almost all of the Sopwith aircraft dating back at least to the Strutter had pitch trim adjusted with a large wheel next to the pilot's seat with cables connected to the elevator. Note the trim wheel pictured about half way down the page of pictures on this Sop Tripe replica: http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/image-galleries/sopwith-triplane-replicaAnd the SE5a had trim adjustment comparable to many 1930s biplanes. Way ahead of its time. It could be flown hands off: http://www.eaa.org.za/articles/se5a-pilot-report"Now, lined up into wind I bring the speed back to 60 and wind the tail trim fully nose up for the landing."http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/se-5a-reproduction/flying-se5a"Adjusting the elevator trim allows the SE5a to be flown hands off something I’m not used to in a WW1 fighter." The problem in RoF is that there are no key strokes to adjust the trim the way it could be done in flight in at least some of the aircraft (certainly in the Sopwiths and the SE5a). That needs fixing. Again, my real life stick time is limited and long ago but RoF feels (is that subjective!!!) very much the way I recall it, especially the turbulence and flying into the wind. No other sim I've flown (and that's quite a few) comes close! And, yes, the pitch is too quirky. That also needs fixing. HT
Last edited by HotTom; 08/10/09 05:58 AM.
Exceptional engineering...and a large hammer to make it fit!
|
|
#2837977 - 08/10/09 07:01 AM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: HotTom]
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,113
KraziKanuK
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,113
Ottawa Canada
|
You are wrong on the trim issue, at least in many of the British planes.
Almost all of the Sopwith aircraft dating back at least to the Strutter had pitch trim adjusted with a large wheel next to the pilot's seat with cables connected to the elevator.
The trim wheel adjusted the incidence of the stab. Glad to hear from all you RL pilots that the flight modelling is realistic.
There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB. The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed. There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
|
|
#2838314 - 08/10/09 04:59 PM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: KraziKanuK]
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 967
ft
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 967
400' MSL
|
The trim wheel adjusted the incidence of the stab. Which is one way of trimming, just to make it absolutely clear that yes, it is a trim wheel.
|
|
#2838325 - 08/10/09 05:16 PM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 967
ft
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 967
400' MSL
|
WWI planes had notoriously ineffective ailerons. They were used more for tuning than initiating a roll. Rudder was how roll was initiated. Which holds very true, at least for the SE5. When slow, a bootfull of rudder is about the only way to bank that sucker. I have to try the Spad though, barely flown that one yet. The SE5 didnt strike me as heavier in roll than the Albatros or N28 though, both of which I've flown a bit more. Tx-Ecodragon, was waiting anxiously for your input. Care to elaborate a bit more on just why you think the aircraft are off in P-factor, gyroscopics and stalling? I'm not aerobatics rated but it seems about right to me. As for adverse yaw, I'll plain disagree and state that it feels just right to me, but we'll never know how these aircraft handled anyway so there's no need getting upset over it. Have you been able to get any of the aircraft into inverted spins? I've only tried with the notoriously stable SE5, and I'm frankly not surprised to discover that it doesn't seem to have enough negative pitch control authority. I also love how this is the first sim in which I find a falling leaf can be performed. Now I want that replay feature! The stability and damping with the pilot in the loop leaves a bit to be wished for, probably in no small part due to the lack of aerodynamic control damping at speed discussed elsewhere. Hands-off I can't see anything obviously off though. None of the rubber-band-on-nise effect which has plagued Il-2 to varying degrees since the big flight model upgrade way back when. I think it all will come down to things being obviously off in the end. If it's not obvious, then we'll never know unless we're one of the few people who actually fly the Real Thing(tm). The experience of flight dynamics is also heavily tinted by the peripherals used. What is most impressive is that there aren't really any glaring omissions. Something is clearly very right about the model doing the magic behind the scenes. Trying to create a correct flight model within a frame work which isn't true to the real-world interactions, as is done in e g FSX, always seems to leave significant artefact where it just isn't possible to push a round real world aircraft into a square model aircraft. None of that in RoF. I still have high hopes.
|
|
#2838355 - 08/10/09 05:47 PM
Re: Real pilots that have this sim,,,how does it fly?
[Re: ft]
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 819
Counterman
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 819
Wisconsin, USA
|
While I can't comment on how a real WWI aircraft flies, they FEEL alright and while doing simple aerobatic maneuvers you need a good understanding of what flight controls do what during that phase of flight. When doing a half-cuban for example, getting to the top of the loop is the easy part, but as you start your 45 degree downline each aircraft has different characteristics about how to go from inverted flight to a normal attitude. -I find the N28 to be the most capable for doing aerobatics.
I do feel there is something missing concerning the aircraft structure strength. I can't seem to get a structural failure doing aggressive flight maneuvers, nor do I black out. The only time I can get the aircraft to fall apart is in a very fast dive.
Stalls and spins seem to be relatively tame and easy to recover from. I have rarely crashed because of either of these. I expected to see the aircraft stall and enter a spin if I pulled back hard on the stick and my wings weren't level. Perhaps these aircraft are just more forgiving then I originally thought.
Trimming, or lack there of, is annoying from a desktop pilot stand point. I have heard pilots of replica WWI aircraft say they are working the entire time while in the a/c to keep it level and flying. So while the unstable nature of the airplane is likely very spot on, it doesn't work for desktop flying. Thankfully I have a CH stick with trim wheels so I can somewhat trim out the aircraft and can let go every once and a while, but it still by no means flies straight.
Flying with a damaged aircraft is fairly rewarding. I have lost an upper or lower wing a few times, sometimes if I am lucky I can gently maneuver and land the aircraft before whats left falls off. I had another flight in the AlbDVa were my left aileron cable broke. In the midst of a dogfight I noticed I was using loads of rudder to maneuver and not till after the fight did I notice it was not moving. It was a nice touch, but it would be nice to know if it was broke from combat damage or just a random mechanical problem.
Overall, I think the aircraft handle how I would expect a primitive aircraft to handle. I would like to see a trim option in game, but my stick can handle it for now.
|
|
|
|