Normally I stay out of this kind of thing, but I felt compelled to say something about what's going on here. First, let me start by saying I'm a lurker. I'd really like to contribute, and perhaps one day I shall have that opportunity. However, with a job, a wife and six kids...well, don't hold your breath.

In the meantime, I really enjoy the work that TK has done and even more so, the modders. I don't even have First Eagles yet, but I'll be getting it soon because I love TK's other games and...because of this community. Or rather, what this community used to be.

I don't think that the people who are "jumping ship" or becoming "exclusive" in some way realize what they are doing. They are killing the very thing they love. If it hadn't been for the modders here, I would never have even bothered to buy SFP1 or any of the other TK sims. I am incredibly grateful for all the hard work that the modders here have done. They've made these games far more than they ever would have been. They've turned what would have been an game like any other into a continued source of fun. Many times I've rushed home from work, looking forward to a new release like a kid on Christmas morning. And now, because of what I feel is a great deal of pettiness on many peoples part, that is all going to go down the drain.

You see, if this community falls apart then how many people won't buy FE, or TK's next sim? If everyone who comes here feels alienated, frightened to ask questions, and not "in the loop" to get new aircraft and such, then people are going to stop buying. And once people stop buying, TK will stop making. So ultimately by contributing,the modders here aren't just making cool new stuff for us; they are helping to ensure the future of the games that we(us and them)all enjoy. Are we going to throw that all away because we can't be adults, because we can't be civil, take a little criticism or turn a deaf ear to the trolls? Human nature being what it is, I'm afraid that will be the case. I really hate to see that happen.

So perhaps, before everyone storms away in a huff, they should take a moment to take stock of what they will be losing if they do. If this community dies, we all lose.

Quite sincerely,
Averjoe

I personaly have watched and have taken notes. Not that it really means anything.

The problems arise when some people slander anouther for their thoughts. Pretty much strait forward plain and simple. Be nice to one anouther because everyone is entitled to their opionion.

I am going to make an exception and let this continue, for now anyway.

Averjoe,
I appreciate your thoughts, Wolfar, yours as well.

Internet interaction is a potentially explosive medium. Just is. Some boards blow up here, some there, but the element of conflict is always lurking right around the corner.

We know this. We do our best to achieve a balance of letting people express themselves, be critical, maybe negative, say some provocative things, and the opposite "warm milk" clamp down.

It is not an easy task. People are volatile sometimes. They don't like something they see, they say "hell with it" and leave. Could be because they think we're too lenient, could be because we're too strict. And anywhere in between.

It all comes down to your point of view, sometimes to your agenda, sometimes to your age, sometimes to your state of mind at the time you post. A myriad of situations and circumstances.

I am not aware of anyone who has solved this equation.

We do our best, that is all we can do.

Averjoe I couldnt agree more. Very well stated. Thanks.

I doubt this is a permanent situation.

I don't know *how* many times I've seen modders and forum regulars call it quits, only to see them reappear on the forums a few weeks or months later after they've had time to cool off.

One regular modder, who shall remain nameless, swore a few months ago on another forum that "his proactive days were over" regarding modding Thirdwire sims. He'd had enough of this and that, blah, blah, blah. It sure sounded like he meant it.

A few weeks later, he was "proactive" again, doing modding. He didn't want to miss out on the fun.

People say a lot of things in the heat of the moment, and only manage to put things in perspective over time. None of this is new.

Well put Averjoe01.
I too am usally just a lurker, but as of late I've (as a modder)felt compelled to speak up.
For no other reason than to say "you couldnt pry me away with a crowbar".

Mike

Averjoe, from the perspective of the average user of the forum and TW sims, I couldnt have said it better myself. Its nice and refreshing to see people with some insight and understanding. I too look forward to the next addon some modder has created from his time and effort, and often find myself checking the SimHQ forums first out of anticipation. I sincerly doubt that anyone leaving will have a significant, long-lasting effect. Either they will come back and continue to do the thing they love as you said, or someone else of similar skill with replace them in time. Already on Combatace I cant help but notice all the new names who have added some thing or another to our game. So, like I said, I wouldnt worry too much...

20mm, well put also from the moderator point of view...

I am awaiting my order of FE. I wish I had downloaded it. While waiting I too have been lurking this forum and have been disappointed with the animosity. I hope it smoothes out because there are some very talented people doing great work.

Well said Averjoe.

I've got my fingers crossed here that it all works out.

I agree Averjoe. I like you have similar responsibilities with very little free time playing and especially modding a game. I do enjoy the contributions of others to TKs sims. they are very talented people as a programmer and Software Engineer I appreciate their dedication to these sims. I think the ability to configure these games have made them successful. I really dislike the bickering and feuding between people on the board but have ran into this all over the web. I think once everyone cools off they should come back to this board and contribute where they can.

This has been brewing for a long time. The trouble we see now is the result of the new era in which we live. Intellectual property laws now govern what we can do here. The makers of models do not share them, only the finished product. The makers of skins do not share the template (the un-merged layered image). Makers of campaigns release them as "self installing" all-inclusive packages. This is seems great--no hassles! But what are the "intellectual property" implications? Does the "author" of the campaign somehow gain control over the objects, sounds, etc?

This type of thing is the rule now--the old days of Red Baron II or European Air War or SDOE are gone for good. We no longer see a modification released with the instruction "see fit to tweak this and fix any errors--and post the fix for the rest of us." No. We see "do not redistribute, do not copy, do not alter."

Is it any wonder that we went from a "do not enter the kitchen" to "private club?" It is a logical progession in the attitude of personal ownership and the need to control.

The next step is a "pay to play" system, and we are already seeing this and it is only logical.

The Wild West is gone and now come the farmers and the fences and the railroad and the law. I would advise everyone to get used to it, but, as always, that is my personal oppinion, and it carries all the qualities of opinions everywhere.

Averjoe, I like to add my backing to your view here. Very well said sir.
Certain shenanigans on this and other forums have begun to make me think twice about posting here. Shame because FE is really great fun

What's interesting to me is how many people have come out of the woodwork to comment on the current situation. One thing being overlooked is the fact that maybe being only a lurker, you share some small responsibility for what's happened. How many of you have posted a "thank you" or a "well done" when a post is made about a new mod, vs. how many of you actually download and use the mod? Not to say we need a cheerleading squad or over the top compliments, just a simple "thanks" will do. How many of you have done that for every mod you downloaded? Maybe a few more of those comments would help balance out the perhaps "well intentioned but poorly written" critiques that seemed to have sparked some of the recent acrimony (a spoon full of sugar and all that).
One caveat - for those of you new to Third Wire sims and coming to the TW themed forums, this obviously doesn't apply to you.

There are very few self installing mods for the thirdwire series and most of the skin templates for the thirdwire series can be downloaded - even Thirdwire have released many of their templates.

If there isn't one about then most people make their own from existing skins - which isn't that difficult - just takes time and patience.
The only things that cannot be modded are the 3D models - although there is enough info on the forums to be able to learn how to create them from scratch.
Everything else can be modded by anyone in this series via ini files - the only thing that cant really be gained from these forums is a true understanding of the flight model variables.

MiGBuster30 I am surprised that you would reply that most skin templates can be downloaded. This is big news and I would appreciate it if you could provide a few links. I know that the WOE templates are on the Thirdwire site, but I'm saying that the average skinner does not include the template with the skin, and I haven't been able to locate the templates for the earlier versions (SFP1 and WOV).

I would really like to know where the templates are hosted, please. They are not with the skins (to save space, perhaps) so if they aren't then are they at Combatace or some other location?

A link to index page for templates would be great.

Thanks.

They are Thirdwires home page under downloads.

Much like the real world pcp, no one is irreplaceable. I also agree that there will always be someone else with similar skills if they take the initiative to devote time to modding.
I have to disagree that there is no significant effect. While it may not be long lasting, there is a significant effect. What is lost is knowledge, experience and guidance. FE will most likely bring new players into the world of a TK sim and that's a good thing. The fact is that there are a slew of guys who have been modding, exploring, making hours and hours of trial and error attempts on almost every file or aspect of SF/WOV/WOE. FE uses basically the same files and reacts to mods the same way. This slew of guys has been doing this for nearly four years. That's a lot of knowledge.
Is it required, absolutely not, but it does save hours, days, weeks of rediscovery.
I don't believe the recent events will bring any modding to a grinding halt. Hell for all I know it may have had no impact on FE modding at all. I do know that it is extremely helpful to have input from those that have already done and succeeded.....as well as failed.

Thanks everyone for your input and for keeping this thread well-balanced.

Theres about 4 pages worth here:
CombatAce Templates


I have only used ones for the non stock F-104 and old F-16 models.

A template for the new Mirage Factory F-16's can be available after I have finished the final skin I'm doing for it - I made this one myself and had to correct a lot of the panel lines etc - still not much use to FE only users though - unless you are fed up of losing and want to introduce something a bit faster