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#2773754 - 11/28/06 05:44 PM Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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briny_norman Offline
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Hi, I got the game yesterday and mostly been flying the Spad 13.
I'd rather be flying the SE5a but the magnifying gunsight is making it completely impossible to hit anything - LOL.
Anyway, I'm flying the Spad 13 (flight model set to 'hard') and I find that I am unable to roll the plane.
No matter what speed or AOA I try it is impossible to complete a roll without going into a spin. The aircraft suddenly looses all it's speed and half a second later I'm twirling towards the ground.
I don't know much about WW1 era aircraft, so can anybody tell me if this behavior is realistic - was it really impossible to roll in an old biplane (at least the Spad 13)?

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#2773755 - 11/28/06 07:54 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Gatticus Offline
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Yea, I noticed on the hard setting the same issues. Best to set the flight model to normal until someone
tweaks them up.


"Electronic music should have freed the masses from the limitations of fretboards and fixed-pitch instruments. But apparently some missed the memo..." --thegibsonian
#2773756 - 11/28/06 08:18 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Zurawski Offline
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Hmmm...

I've not had a problem rolling on hard... so long as I rolled "with" the torque.

When rolling "against" it... yes, in some situations it is difficult.

\:D

#2773757 - 11/28/06 11:07 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Keithb77 Offline
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Wont roll for me in hard, in either direction.
It stalls when inverted, the nose comes up and the you just have to ride it down.

You can immelman - half loop and half roll off the top, and you can half roll, pause inverted and half roll again....sometimes.

In normal it still stalls but sometimes you can recover.
Once I got stuck upside down at 4 knots!

Zurawski, are you using the retail or the beta?
With the SE5 reversed rudder and the Spad unable to stunt I wonder if something got broke at the last minute?

Cheers,
Keith

#2773758 - 11/29/06 12:41 AM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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briny_norman Offline
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So I take it the inability to roll is not realistic, then.

Anyway, I've set the flight model to normal and can roll fine.
Although the flying feels a bit more simplistic on this setting, it's still very possible to stall and spin, so it's not too bad and will do me fine for now.

Still can't hit anything with the SE5a, though. The silly 'magnifyingtube-gunsight' completely throws me off. But I'm having a great time trying!

Cheers!

#2773759 - 11/29/06 01:42 AM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Heck Mitchell Offline
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Actually, from research I did a number of years ago, and the pilot reports from the time that I've read, this is probably the most accurate behavior I've seen in any flight sim for WW1 aircraft. The SE5a especially. See if you can find the book Flying the Old Planes, by Frank Tallman. He explains a lot in it. These were not the slotted ailerons of the 1930-40's. These were barn door surfaces with lots of control throw, which meant a lot of adverse yaw, and it was actually possible to stall a wing tip simply by misuse of the ailerons. I find it to be frighteningly accurate, according to what I've read. The one thing I think is missing is the ability to break almost any airplane by misuse of the elevator controls. I've seen a RFC training broadside reprinted in a book that showed the results of too sharp a pull out by a pilot fracturing the horizontal stabilizer of his plane, with fatal results. The aircraft the RFC chose to portray in this hand out? The SE5a, an airplane noted for its structural strength. What they were trying to tell you, the novice going to the Western Front, was that ham handed flying could get you killed in any machine, no matter how strongly built. There's some things missing from this flight model, like the inability to blip engines, which will affect accurate flight models for rotary engines, but I think much of what's being perceived as errors, at first glance, is actually accurate flight modelling of the time.

#2773760 - 11/29/06 02:09 AM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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KillerAnts Offline
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Same here... No joy in Barrel rolls...

#2773761 - 11/29/06 04:31 AM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Zurawski Offline
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Alrighty...

Just took all birds on a test flight... all roll (FM on hard)...

SE5a rolls with GREAT difficulty to the right (Yeah I figured out "for right now"... rudder input for the SE5a is backawards)...

But yes all do roll with substantial rudder input... At least for me they do. :p

#2773762 - 11/29/06 07:47 AM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Keithb77 Offline
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Its odd - I have the opposite results.
I tried another joystick just in case, with same results.
All in hard mode.
SE5 rolls fine in both directions, without rudder.
Spad wont roll more than 180deg in either direction without stalling.
D7 is VERY manouvrable and completely outclasses the others. It can be rolled at low-level and you can stall and recover reliably.

Cheers,
Keith

#2773763 - 11/29/06 09:36 AM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Thud67 Offline
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S.E.5A: Went external: left rudder---roll to right, right rudder---roll to left. Once it is actually in a bank in either direction it turns tight and well.

S.P.A.D. XIII: Roll inverted, induce stall, unrecoverable spin. Does not happen with D.VIIs.

If the S.E.5A loses its upper wing, it continues to fly! Have done this twice now.

I'm using Hard for everything, as usual with Third Wire products, and a Microsoft Sidewinder 2 FF stick. Looks like TK had better get out a patch.

#2773764 - 11/29/06 01:21 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Tailspin Offline
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Info re: Spad XIII;
"It was faster than its main contemporaries, the British Sopwith Camel and the German Fokker D.VII, and was renowned for its ruggedness and diving ability. However, its manoeuvrability was inferior, especially at low speeds. Poor gliding characteristics and a very sharp stall made it a difficult aircraft for novice pilots to land safely."

And the D VII;
"The D.VII entered squadron service with Jasta 10 in early May 1918. The plane quickly proved to be vastly superior to the existing Albatros and Pfalz scouts. Unlike the Albatros scouts, the D.VII could dive without any fear of structural failure. The D.VII was also noted for its ability to climb at high angles of attack, its remarkably docile stalling behavior, and its reluctance to spin. These handling characteristics contrasted with contemporary scouts such as the Camel and SPAD, which stalled sharply and spun vigorously."

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the roll charastics of the Spad in the sim but the overall behavior of the aircraft seems to be pretty close to RL. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.


Joke em if they can't take a....
#2773765 - 11/29/06 01:32 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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briny_norman Offline
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Well, could be that the Spad 13 is supposed to be hard to fly.
I guess I'll have to go back to 'hard mode' and just practise some more, then.

Tailspin, where did you get those quotes from?

#2773766 - 11/29/06 01:46 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Tailspin Offline
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Wikipedia, FWIW.


Joke em if they can't take a....
#2773767 - 11/29/06 03:06 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Zurawski Offline
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My personal experience: Download/retail version - Hard Settings.

SPAD: Roll both right and left accomplished by small dive to gather airspeed... initiate roll and coordinate with rudder input to maintain reasonable horizon orientation. Total altitude loss, maybe 100 ft.

SE5a: Roll to the right accomplished by small dive to gather airspeed... initiate roll and coordinate with rudder input to maintain reasonable horizon orientation. Total altitude loss, maybe 100 ft. Roll to the left required more airspeed via dive, followed by a slight climb in conjunction with judicial use of rudder to maintain horizon. Total altitude loss, approximately 300 ft.

D VII: Roll both right and left accomplished by small dive to gather airspeed... initiate roll and coordinate with little rudder input to maintain horizon orientation. Total altitude loss, nominal. The DVIIs roll effortlessly... rudder correction to maintain horizon is small compared to the British and French birds...

Just my experiance... yours may vary. \:D

#2773768 - 11/29/06 03:30 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Tailspin Offline
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I just went back and tried to roll the Spad. Worked every time. Per Streakeagle's suggestion, I used rudder input in the same direction as the roll. I did lose several hundred feet in alt. depending on initial speed but no stalls occured. Shuddered a bit right at the end so you have to be ready on the stick. So, it is possible to roll the Spad without stalling and spinning. Just don't do it low and slow. ;\) I think more practice with the control inputs will gain better results as Zur has shown.


Joke em if they can't take a....
#2773769 - 11/29/06 04:26 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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2Lt_Joch Offline
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This reminds of the inevitability of the changing seasons or of the rotation of the planets, every new flight sim inevitably generates flight model discussions. \:D

I had not realised this was out, I will be picking it up. I have been looking forward to a good WW1 flight sim.


Intel Q9550, Gyga P35-DS3R, XFX 6950 XXX, 27" widescreen, 8 g. DDR2 @800, 2xWDRaptor 36g HD @ RAID 0, 1tb WD Caviar black HD, X-Fi Fatal1ty, win 7 64bit ultimate, Cougar/FSSB/HS1, Tir4.
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#2773770 - 11/29/06 07:03 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Gatticus Offline
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What about Richard Ordway's post about flat turns? Can't do flat turns in this game, rudder input is very weak.


"Electronic music should have freed the masses from the limitations of fretboards and fixed-pitch instruments. But apparently some missed the memo..." --thegibsonian
#2773771 - 11/29/06 07:17 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherpa:
This reminds of the inevitability of the changing seasons or of the rotation of the planets, every new flight sim inevitably generates flight model discussions.
That is does. But since I have never flown any of these things in real life, I don't comment much on these threads. I rely on flight manuals because the average source on the net or in a book is suspect at best. Seems you can't get 2 sources to agree. But you have to admit these discussions are good to read as there are a lot of smart people in these forums on the subject.

#2773772 - 11/29/06 08:04 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Keithb77 Offline
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Quote:
What about Richard Ordway's post about flat turns? Can't do flat turns in this game, rudder input is very weak.
In truth even airliners dont do flat turns, the only time you want to do a flat turn is when taxying on the ground....which doesnt work at all in FE. I dont think prop-wash is modelled, so a quick blast of throttle with full rudder, which should spin you round, does nothing.

FE is really about dog-fighting, we should concentrate on issues affecting that as TK will more likely fix them.

Of to try the Spad again ....

Cheers,
Keith

#2773773 - 11/29/06 08:26 PM Re: Impossible to roll in Spad 13?  
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Joker_VMF124 Offline
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SPAD rolls fine for me on Hard, but I have to be going fast, something over 100 kts. Like Zurawski says, you need to give it some rudder.

Man, though, it's got a vicious stall. Haven't been able to recover yet.

Best practice: DON'T STALL THE SPAD! \:\)

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