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#2647956 - 01/07/09 12:48 AM Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS?  
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mapinduzi Offline
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I've been playing this sim for a little while now and have become decent enough to get shot down. Actually, I'm reasonably proficient at sitting back and attacking distant targets, but I feel there's not much in the way of science behind my attacks/defense.

I generally fly to ingress, shkval from far out and/or send a wingman to "recce," sit back and fire away (generally I start with missles against SAM's and work my way down). If I'm too far for my weapons, I slide in a little closer and then attack. I'm not all that great yet at dealing with close, and wild/quick, combat flying/aiming ... though turning tail and running ain't that hard.

I'd like to be able to plan out strategies/tactics for the various mission types/situations (i.e. best practice approaches for convoy hunts, cas, etc.) and am wondering what's been working for others.

I remember reading somewhere someone had recommended that we think of helicopter operations more from the perspective of a land warrior than from fixed wing perspective; use terrain, plan ahead, etc. (I'm not stating it nearly as well as the orignal poster ... but I can't seem to find that post right now). What that poster said opened my eyes some, but I'd love to learn more about staying alive in this here KA-50.

Hopefully this topic isn't too vague, broad, or ... redundant.

best,

m

Last edited by mapinduzi; 01/07/09 12:55 AM.
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#2647968 - 01/07/09 01:09 AM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: mapinduzi]  
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Originally Posted By: mapinduzi
I feel there's not much in the way of science behind my attacks/defense.


A realistic mission might very well feel this way for you. A real pilot will know his butt's on the line out there, you don't get that little adrenaline rush.

Quote:
I generally fly to ingress, shkval from far out and/or send a wingman to "recce," sit back and fire away (generally I start with missles against SAM's and work my way down). If I'm too far for my weapons, I slide in a little closer and then attack.


You're doing it right.

Quote:
I'm not all that great yet at dealing with close, and wild/quick, combat flying/aiming ... though turning tail and running ain't that hard.


That would be doing it wrong - ie. putting yourself in a situation where you're being shot at. If you cannot avoid this (ambush, etc) do turn tail and come back from a safe location.

Quote:
Hopefully this topic isn't too vague, broad, or ... redundant.


It's quite broad unfortunately smile
So far you seem to be doing ok. Next step might be multi-ship ops as lead.
Another thing to do is carefully pick your ingress and egress points from the map based on threat and other factors.

Also decide abort conditions (engine failure, WCS failure, CMD empty, etc)

Last edited by GrayGhost; 01/07/09 01:10 AM.

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#2648014 - 01/07/09 03:16 AM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Maya7 Offline
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Excellent topic I was thinking the same thing. IM having a hell of a problem on the 'Patrol' quick mission, no matter where I hide out to destroy the convoy they either nail me with tank rounds or sams. I've only been able to take out 3 vehicles at the most out of like 10 trys so far...

#2648023 - 01/07/09 03:30 AM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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mapinduzi Offline
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Thanks for the tips and encouragement ... I feel better about how I've been approaching things. I suppose I should just use a little more critical thinking before heading out and contemplate ingress/egress points (and system failure response) a touch more thoroughly.

I suspect the initial cause for the question I posed was that (spoiler):


Click to reveal..
in one of the later Deployment campaign missions, the first one with 3 wingmen where I flew for a long time then struggled to get over a high peak, made it to the ingress point, a SEAD strike succeeded and so I proceeded to "sneak" my team into an attack position, then some fast mover(s) with air-air missiles took me out, then my team, and left me wondering what I did wrong.


Oh, this also left my pilot dead (I had, somewhat accidentally bottles, turned off my pilot's invincibility ... not just that of my ship). I knew in advance that there would be airborne threats, but I hoped they would be intercepted by my own sides air-air cover. I haven't made it back to that mission ... but should be back there fairly soon (with a new pilot).

I suppose my new, and hopefully less broad, question is: what's the best way of avoiding/circumventing airborne threats when I know in advance (or even if I don't know in advance) they'll be up there hunting for innocent little ol' me (and team).

At any rate, thanks for your help GrayGhost. BTW, what do you mean by multi-ship missions as lead? Do you mean lead AI wingmen?

Best,

m

Last edited by mapinduzi; 01/07/09 03:35 AM.
#2648041 - 01/07/09 04:22 AM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Maya7]  
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mapinduzi Offline
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Originally Posted By: Maya7
IM having a hell of a problem on the 'Patrol' quick mission, no matter where I hide out to destroy the convoy they either nail me with tank rounds or sams. I've only been able to take out 3 vehicles at the most out of like 10 trys so far...


I had trouble with that one too. I ended up sitting very far away and waiting for them to come around a passage. It took me several tries as well, and I feel like I cheated a bit because I basically knew they'd be comin' 'round that mountain, you know, eventually. When they did I was too far for them to reach me, and so I picked them off.

I think if I get another patrol mission in a narrow canyon, I'll search slowly in order to avoid running into a bad situation.

Last edited by mapinduzi; 01/07/09 04:22 AM.
#2648042 - 01/07/09 04:24 AM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: mapinduzi]  
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Yea the first time I did it they nailed me from behind! After that I've tried to ambush them at various points but like I said, 3 vehicles hits seems to be about as much as I can do before they're sams/tank gunners get a bead on me so I guess I have to re-position or get quicker at targeting lol

#2648056 - 01/07/09 04:40 AM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Maya7]  
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EkimRis Offline
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I was thinking of starting a thread with this exact topic. I've been feeling the same way, wondering if I'm somehow doing something wrong because I'm not in there duking it out with the ground troops but I guess that's my Unreal Tournament roots coming out in a vastly different genre.

It almost feels like cheating sending the wingman out to do the recon because he spots things I wouldn't catch in an hour of searching. I'll even admit to sending him to engage targets that I haven't found yet just so he'll show me where they are frown (it makes me feel like a real jerk when he gets shot down).

#2648058 - 01/07/09 04:42 AM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Maya7]  
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mapinduzi Offline
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One thing I tried earlier on, which failed but helped me figure out where they would come around, was to edit the mission and give myself a wingman. I sent him to recce ahead ... he found them alright, and then got shot down (of course). After that I had a slightly better lay of the land and was able to complete it without him.

#2648134 - 01/07/09 11:17 AM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: mapinduzi]  
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Against fighters: If you know the general direction they're coming from, try to always have something mountainy between you and their radar. Failing that, slow down below 100kph GS, to fall into the doppler notch - mind you if their forces spot you they might tell'em where to find you, too.

So the trick is evade, strike quickly, and fade.

For the patrol mission - if you know the approximate route of the convoy, find a spot along the map where you can observe the route from 3km+, and settle into a hover there - be patient - and you'll end up catching'em on your terms.


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#2648174 - 01/07/09 02:21 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Hey, Mapinduzi!
Excellent topic. I just want to add my two cents as a former AH-64 driver... you are doing things right! Just as GrayGhost says - "evade, strike quickly, and fade" - he's exactly right. As far as fixed wing encounters - avoid 'em if you can and take Ghost's advice. Get some terrain between you and them!

As far as target priorities, obviously whatever the mission says will define them - but in general, we used the acronym "ACAPM" - 1)Air Defenses 2)Command & Control 3)Armor/Artillery 4)Personnel Carriers 5)Miscellaneous (trucks/etc).

Our movement was similar to grunt tactics - "travelling/travelling overwatch/bounding/bounding overwatch, etc." Using your wingman to Recon and shooting from stand off ranges is best to your survivability and follows the general rule of making contact with your smallest element. Don't get decisively engaged until you have firepower superiority. It's always best to avoid a knock-down, drag-out "slugfest".

Keep doing what you're doing! I can't wait to buy this sim!!!!

#2648183 - 01/07/09 02:34 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Rider06]  
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Good thread, was thinking about all this myself... American tactics with their hellfire missiles and their pop up and scan tactic is what I'm use to in games like LB2... but i find these tactics missing in BS... unless you have labels on, you have to get in too close to... say, a convoy... to determine which one is the AA target which should be the priority, then clean up the rest...

but since you have to get in so close, what is the proper tactic for a Russian bird with no radar or way to ID targets?

I haven't learned to use the "passing targets" tool yet... but I still don't see how that will help unless I have labels on and can see what the targets are and the distance.

#2648207 - 01/07/09 03:31 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Magnum]  
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Asking me the same question after flying some MP (in SP I´m using AI wingy for reccon to). There was a mission where AA guns was placed behind a mountain. We could`t see it before past them(had a route trough a valley). So we thinking about that one of us allways fly fast forward and all others stay behind and watch if some one is shooting on him. Though, seems to be a bad tactic for the one who plays as a shill...

@Rider06: Allways nice to have a former Apache driver here. You will not regret buying DCS:BS. ;-)

Last edited by EagleEye[GER]; 01/07/09 03:55 PM.
#2648209 - 01/07/09 03:35 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Magnum]  
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Regarding target ID, I find its quite possible to ID vehicles out to around 3-4 km, using the Narrow FOV Shkval. Well, in good visibillity and daylight that is!
I can't say I always get it right, but if I'm in doubt, I treat it as AA
And.. those dug in AAA guns can be a real bit*h to find!
What I do is sneak around the target area a bit, and try to view it from different angles, storing the targets as I go. During this, it is very important to keep distance to the target and stay low. A wingman is a great asset here, because he can look out for badguys, and call out launches while I am heads down, working the Shkval. Autohover is a real blessing here.


Fortes Fortuna Juvat
#2648210 - 01/07/09 03:35 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: EagleEye[GER]]  
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exactly... you would think the Russian had some kind of forward observer or ground contact... I can't believe thier tactic is/was pretty much, fly over get shot at, and try and shoot back, lol.

#2648259 - 01/07/09 05:08 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Magnum]  
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Only reading the last couple of posts re: identifying items.... Can i ask a probable silly question?

Are you using the zoom in and out features (not the shval zoom - but the view zoom) to zoom in up close to shval monitor? You will find that this will aid a great deal in identifying items.

------

On a side note, there is no substitute for a wingman. In multiplayer, it is a necessity and I and colleagues have noticed a marked survival percentage when having one helo back as observer and one going in to recon / identify.

Unfortunately, This does mean that one helo may enter a HOT situation, but an observer can spot a missile / gun fire quite easily givng me time to evade (unless the mongrel is well hidden i have flown very close to them).

As the observer, pick your ingress and egress routes and alts before moving in and keep your speed up to a level you can perform quick manouvers. Having your schval in auto sweep (select a speed you are happy with) as you move forward can also help as you don't need to operate the schval yourself.

If you make your ingress point, observer rejoins or bounds ahead if needed and then you become observer for them.

If #%&*$# hits the fan on the way in from unseen enemy. Unfortunately you can only rely on their observation to call a threat. IF this is the case, heaps of flares, lots of manouvers, get low and fast and out of there.

However, using the zoom feature usually means i can spot and ident enemies at a range outside my engagment zone (which means i am well outside theirs). Giving me time to plan and execute an attack. However, there is always that horrible chance of a well hidden and missed enemy which you will unknowingly fly very close to, so luck is always a good component.


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#2648325 - 01/07/09 06:46 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: bogusheadbox]  
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I just use a snap view of the Shkval and Abris, that gives a nice big Shkval picture with lots of detail.
Going to check out that view zoom, thanks for the tip!


Fortes Fortuna Juvat
#2648721 - 01/08/09 02:45 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Rider06]  
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Originally Posted By: Rider06
Hey, Mapinduzi!
Excellent topic. I just want to add my two cents as a former AH-64 driver... you are doing things right! Just as GrayGhost says - "evade, strike quickly, and fade" - he's exactly right. As far as fixed wing encounters - avoid 'em if you can and take Ghost's advice. Get some terrain between you and them!

As far as target priorities, obviously whatever the mission says will define them - but in general, we used the acronym "ACAPM" - 1)Air Defenses 2)Command & Control 3)Armor/Artillery 4)Personnel Carriers 5)Miscellaneous (trucks/etc).

Our movement was similar to grunt tactics - "travelling/travelling overwatch/bounding/bounding overwatch, etc." Using your wingman to Recon and shooting from stand off ranges is best to your survivability and follows the general rule of making contact with your smallest element. Don't get decisively engaged until you have firepower superiority. It's always best to avoid a knock-down, drag-out "slugfest".

Keep doing what you're doing! I can't wait to buy this sim!!!!


Hi Rider06!

There is a lot to learn from you. Can't wait until you get the sim. smile
Is there a field manual that describes attack helicopter tactics?
I have FM 1-112, but I am looking for more.

Also, IIRC in the US Army they used to have some trained officers who would be OPFOR during armor training exercises. They would even have to study Soviet tactics in order to do so. Is/was there something similar for OPFOR attack helicopters?

Best regards,

#2648744 - 01/08/09 03:29 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Chelco]  
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Rider06 Offline
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Hi Chelco..
FM 1-112 is the attack helicopter bible. I think the one I have was published in 1991, but I'm sure they've updated it since then. (I'm old! LOL)

You might also want to look at FM 17-95 Cavalry Operations if you can get your hands on it.

As far as OPFOR for helos, the US Army Aviation has a division called OPTEC (I think that's what it's called) run by Department of the Army Civilians for use at the Training Centers. I'm not sure they are as "into it" as the "World Class OPFOR" at the National Training Center. They flight MI-8's, MI-24's, and a couple of other birds. They are based in Ft Polk, LA I believe. You might be able to research on the web a little.

In "regular army aviation", we never dealt with the OPFOR Air that much, as it wasn't our doctrine to get into A2A engagements.

Hope this helps!

#2648751 - 01/08/09 03:35 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Rider06]  
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Chelco Offline
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Thanks million Rider06.

FM 17-95: great point. I have that one since I play a lot of Steel Beasts ProPE. Were you in Cavalry Aviation?

I will take a very good look at your pointers.

Cheers,

#2648758 - 01/08/09 03:41 PM Re: Best practice strategies/tactics for situations in DCS-BS? [Re: Chelco]  
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Rider06 Offline
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Yep... Most of my time was in Air Cav. (The Kiowa guys don't think us Apache guys were "real" Cav, but they were just jealous 'cuz we had bigger guns! LOL)

- 1/6 Cavalry
- 1-4 ATKHB 4th ID
- 3/6 Cavalry
- 1-227th ATKHB 1CD

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