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#2379943 - 11/16/07 03:46 AM F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping  
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I've recently watched some Hornet simulation landings in youtube (Jane's F/A-18, FSX Acceleration Hornet)

I noticed most or maybe all of them landed in the green index of the AoA Bracket towards the carrier.

Since the first time i've trapped in Jane's, i was only in the yellow index, if i get a yellow with a bit of green or red, i immediately abort the landing.

Maybe what i believed was false? Can someone tell me the true AoA index when landing especially on carriers?

yeah, i noticed in the videos that pilot also flares before slamming on the deck..

Last edited by yue120; 11/16/07 03:55 AM.

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#2380016 - 11/16/07 07:00 AM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: yue120]  
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If you watch some of the videos that I have up there I also try and make sure that the yellow is indicating. If you are landing with the green you are to slow and your rate of descent is to high or is about to be. When ever I'm landing whether it's on a carrier of an airfield, I always try and maintain the yellow in the AOA indicator. I'm in the progress of making a how to trap on a carrier video and I do stress that you have to have correct AOA.

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#2380077 - 11/16/07 12:11 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Bonkers]  
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@Bonkers:Ok, i see.. I was wondering if i should maintain the yellow index all the way to touchdown or if i need to reduce my descent rate before touchdown. I see the descent rate around 700-800 feet per minute when in the "Yellow AoA".

Last edited by yue120; 11/16/07 02:35 PM.

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#2380138 - 11/16/07 01:48 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: yue120]  
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After becoming proficient at landing with 100's of traps using the manual landing in the training missions I learned that the directions from the LSO and the indexer, though helpful, can largely be ignored. Your eyeballs are all you need to tell you if your are within the right parameters for a good landing. Certainly you do not want to ignore your instruments, but as I get within 3/4 miles of the carrier they are of minimal importance. Your descent rate is on the right side of the HUD so the indexer can be ignored. So, for me, I try to lower the speed to about 145-150 knots, descent rate less than 900 fps, aiming my nose just past the last wire. Usually, after all that, if I do not catch a wire it is because of a change in my flight path just before touchdown, usually caused by a slight increase in throttle and angle of attack. With all instrument indicators that are available, in the last analysis lots of landing practice will teach you how to "feel" the correct landing setup and your instruments will be used to confirm your choices. Just my opinion.

#2380159 - 11/16/07 02:21 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Timc]  
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yue120, can you link to those videos showing a flare before a carrier trap? Everything I know says that that is wrong.

I fly a centered AOA indexer and a centered ball, only using the ILS in-close for lineup indications (and even then, I can manage the lineup just fine visually). The ILS indicator is inaccurate in-close for glideslope indications.

#2380179 - 11/16/07 02:56 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Joe]  
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@Joe:

Here they are:

JF18 A
The approach seems to be already within the "yellow index" but right before reaching the deck, the pilot shifted the AoA to a higher one..

JF18 B
This one approached at a lower AoA (Red Index), but right before touchdown, the pilot flared, thus touching down within the yellow index.

FSX Acceleration A
This one was in FSX Acceleration. This is the video that scared me, with the AoA really high. The deck's almost gone.

@Timc: I was accustomed the other way around.. I seldom look at the Airspeed indicator, instead i focus on the A0A indexers. I learned this during my "brief" stay in Falcon 4.0 AF and in Lock On, landing the Eagle by the AoA.

I was also looking at this Real Hornet Video.
Hornet External view
Isn't that 3-light indicator (below the landing lights) on the nosewheel connected to the AoA Indexer data in the Cockpit. Right before touchdown, the illumination seem to have changed.

Last edited by yue120; 11/16/07 03:10 PM.

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#2380400 - 11/16/07 07:47 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: yue120]  
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 Originally Posted By: yue120
JF18 A
The approach seems to be already within the "yellow index" but right before reaching the deck, the pilot shifted the AoA to a higher one..
This pilot is very low on approach and is required to correct by flattening at the end. If you start wrong, you end wrong. Use the ball (IFLOLS) and this won't happen.

 Quote:
JF18 B
This one approached at a lower AoA (Red Index), but right before touchdown, the pilot flared, thus touching down within the yellow index.
This pilot is high and fast during the approach. You can tell because the IFLOLS indicates an above-glideslope condition (the ball is above the datum lights) and the LSO is giving "you're a little high" calls. Increasing the AOA just before touchdown slows the plane and drops the altitude at the same time. This is called "diving for the deck" and is extremely dangerous in real life.


 Quote:
FSX Acceleration A
This one was in FSX Acceleration. This is the video that scared me, with the AoA really high. The deck's almost gone.
Yep, the deck's almost gone and that's a really bad approach. The AOA indexer is indicating slow all the way in. If that pilot flew with an amber indication (i.e. a lower AOA), then he would be able to see the deck.

 Quote:
I was also looking at this Real Hornet Video.
Hornet External view
Isn't that 3-light indicator (below the landing lights) on the nosewheel connected to the AoA Indexer data in the Cockpit. Right before touchdown, the illumination seem to have changed.
Yes, the lights on the landing gear are connected to the AOA indexer. However, I can't mkae them out in that video; sorry.


I thought you were going to show me some videos of real F-18s landing on a carrier with a flare. I don't think there are any, though, because that's not how it's done. In Jane's F-18, you might be able to get away with some poor practices. However, if you center your AOA and the ball in-close, you will catch a 3-wire and you will be riding an amber AOA indication all the way until the wheels hit the deck. Anything else just means you are headed for the flight deck but you aren't necessarily going to get there at the right attitude, rate of descent, or even the right location (i.e. fantail vs. 1-wire vs. 4-wire).

Last edited by Joe; 11/16/07 07:47 PM.
#2380473 - 11/16/07 10:27 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Joe]  
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 Originally Posted By: Joe
[quote=yue120]JF18 A
The approach seems to be already within the "yellow index" but right before reaching the deck, the pilot shifted the AoA to a higher one..
This pilot is very low on approach and is required to correct by flattening at the end. If you start wrong, you end wrong. Use the ball (IFLOLS) and this won't happen.

LOL....Well I can tell ya that the pilot in that Video was me. I will admit that it is not the best but was going more for entertainment value then carrier accuracy. I was to high, the meatball was above the datam arms so I dropped a little throttle to catch the ball.

I was young and silly when that video was made..lol

BonKeRS
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Last edited by CVW11 BonKeRS; 11/16/07 10:34 PM.

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#2380679 - 11/17/07 04:25 AM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Bonkers]  
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I thought someone might come in and say that... \:\)

No offense intended, but just like real naval aviators I always strive for good approaches.

#2380953 - 11/17/07 02:38 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Joe]  
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@joe: I was only talking about Hornet Simulation videos from sims. I never mentioned anything about Real life Hornet landings with a flare.

The last video just caught my attention though.. maybe someone could enlighten about those 3 lights on the nosewheel.

Anyways I was just getting confused since most Hornet Simulator game pilots were flaring right before they hit the deck. It made me think that since everyone seems to be flaring, maybe it's more correct. BUT you made it clear now anyway, at least in Jane's F/A-18 situation. \:\)

@Bonkers: Sorry, Never knew it was you. I was just making random searches for Jane's F/A-18 Landings is all. \:\)


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#2382346 - 11/19/07 08:56 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: yue120]  
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Yue,

Don't flare. It might look like a flare when other pilots land perhaps because the rear wheels hit before the nosewheel, but that effect takes no special pilot action if you are within the proper configuration. Essentially, your landing should feel like a flat landing.

When I was learning to fly the F-16 in Falcon4, the training instructions talk about flaring just before touchdown. I erroneouly thought that I had to distinctly perform a measurable flare that I could see. Everytime I did that I scraped the exhaust on the runway, which makes a irritating screeching sound and, of course, damages the aircraft. After a while I realized that if I kept the plane in the right landing configuration the plane touched down perfectly and I did not have to perform any last minute flare as the flare seems to be built into the configuration. In fact, as with the Hornet, I visaully line up the Viper referring only to speed and throttle setting, and perform what my senses visually tell me is a flat landing, although it actually does flare at the correct time. What I do is not recommended. What Joe says is, but I am impatient and can land the Hornet as a second nature.

So, what I am suggesting is that you follow Joe's directions and you will perform excellent carrier landings with the Hornet. As you probably know, last second adjustments to altitude with the stick can cause you to crash or miss the wires. If your configuration is good a little throttle up or down will move your flight path just enough. Your stick will largely be used for left and right adjustments (which would be better done with rudder input if the sim had a working rudder).

Tim

#2383148 - 11/20/07 09:35 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: yue120]  
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 Quote:
This pilot is very low on approach and is required to correct by flattening at the end. If you start wrong, you end wrong. Use the ball (IFLOLS) and this won't happen.


For some reason i was thought i read some where on this forum that the ball was bugged in JF18 and caused you to go high. I am mistaken?


#2383252 - 11/21/07 12:06 AM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: graves_09]  
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I don't that is true. I do know there is sort of a bug when using the Automatic Carrier Landing System. Due to using much faster CPU speeds you will catch the 1 wire. If you are using the IFLOLS there is no problem catching the 3 wire. If you use the ILS on the other hand which you shouldn't use, mainly a small deviation on you glideslope equals are very small movement from the ILS and when you fly with a high resolution it is much easier to correct you glide slope with the IFLOLS.

BonKeRS
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Better to be brave for a moment,
then a coward for a life time.
#2383385 - 11/21/07 03:28 AM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: graves_09]  
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 Originally Posted By: graves_09
 Quote:
This pilot is very low on approach and is required to correct by flattening at the end. If you start wrong, you end wrong. Use the ball (IFLOLS) and this won't happen.


For some reason i was thought i read some where on this forum that the ball was bugged in JF18 and caused you to go high. I am mistaken?
Yes, you are mistaken. The bug (inaccuracy, really) is the ILS - if you follow it then you will be low in-close, usually leading to a 1-wire. USe the ball and it will guide you accurately to a 3-wire.

#2383672 - 11/21/07 02:38 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Joe]  
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Thanks Joe, it has been so long since the last time I used the ILS to guide myself in for a trap. Was not sure if the ILS sent you long or short, but I do remember the ACLS makes you come in short.

BonKeRS
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Better to be brave for a moment,
then a coward for a life time.
#2383687 - 11/21/07 02:55 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Bonkers]  
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The ALCS uses the ILS beacons to guide the aircraft, so that's not surprising.

#2383714 - 11/21/07 03:24 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Joe]  
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i knew there was some bug with landing and for some reason i thought it was the ball. i was most likely getting mixed up with the ILS. thanks for clearing that up.


#2390055 - 11/29/07 09:53 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: graves_09]  
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 Quote:
Your eyeballs are all you need to tell you if your are within the right parameters for a good landing.


Deck spotting will get you killed at night

AoA centered

Fly the ball

Throttle to move the FPM up or down

Stick for very very small corrections left or right


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#2390152 - 11/30/07 12:34 AM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Snowfalcon]  
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Don't know why I didn't remember this the first time around, but this might help:
http://tsh.war-fighters.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=31

#2646288 - 01/04/09 06:21 PM Re: F/A-18 Landing AoA especially trapping [Re: Joe]  
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Originally Posted By: Joe
a flare before a carrier trap? Everything I know says that that is wrong.



I once read a post from a Naval Aviator that said "Flaring to land is like squatting to pee" smile


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