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#2567298 - 08/13/08 07:45 AM Missile evasion.  
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Supercobra Offline
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hello, all.

i'm trying a missile evasion [A.A] but no success. can anyone tell me what is the best way for evasion?
flares and cheffs are not that effective.

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#2567470 - 08/13/08 03:46 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: Supercobra]  
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Well, first of all there are two important manuvers for evading a missile:
-beaming: putting the missile on your 3/9 o'clock
-dragging: putting the missile on your 6 o'clock, acctually running away from it
-the key when evading a missile is being fast, flying at 300 kts doesn't get you much chance to evade it. Be fast, at least 450 kts for heat seaking missile, missiles hate that.

I'll explain to you my best ways of evading missiles in A-A combat.

Short range heat-seaking missiles (R-13M, R-60, R-73...):
They are hard to evade because they are most offten fired from short range but there are some manuvers to evade them. When you see a heat-seaking missile launched at you the first thing to do is to reduce your throttle to idle to minimize your heat signature. Being in afterburner or even on 100% military power means being very hot and it's hard to brake the missiles lock in that condition. It takes a few seconds for the aircraft to cool itself. Immediately start droping flares. Now, if the missile is fired from a very short range like 3 nm then you immediatelly start turning in the missile. Do not try to beam it then like it says in the manual. You don't have that much time. Of course if it's fired from your 6 o'clock you don't have many solutions then. I only managed to evade R-13s from 6 o'clock.

If they are fired from a bigger range like 6-9 nm which is possible in a head-on fight, then you SHOULD beam it. Do this then: reduce the throttle to idle, start dropping flares and putting the missile on you 3/9 o'clock. Keep dropping flares and if it continues to track you then turn in the missile. These are my best manuvers to evade heat seaking missiles. It works. I managed to evade 3-5 R-60s from a short range when I was fighting with two MiG-21s.

Medium range radar missiles (R-77, R-27, R-23, R-40RD...)
R-77
When you see the M symbol on your RWR coming from a MiG-29 or a Su-27 you should first drag the missile and accelerate to over 550 kts. Drop chaff all the time and the most important, TURN OFF your jammer. And descent, descent to 9000 - 12000 feet if possible. Higher air density will bleed the missiles energy. You can come down below 9000 feet but then you expose yourself to enemy ground forces. When you see the missile not moving or barely moving on your RWR it means that it's moving with your speed approximately. Pitch up to 60°-80°. The missile will pitch with you and it will bleed the rest of it's energy and explode. The missile will probably be beaten with these manuvers.
It works for me always if I do it correctly. If the missile is fired from <15 nm then it's really hard to beat it, below 10 nm even imposible.

SARH missiles
SARH missiles to me are even harder to beat than a R-77 because you can't judge the distance to turn in it or to pitch up like with the R-77. It's not on your RWR and it's hard to judge the distance by looking at it. So do this: drag it, deploy chaff, accelerate, and TURN ON your jammer. I do this until I see it falling down or until the MISSILE LAUNCH light turns off. Someone maybe has a better solution but this is my.

Last edited by Fighter Pilot; 08/13/08 03:49 PM.
#2567472 - 08/13/08 03:52 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: Supercobra]  
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Dragging and beaming are the two techniques. Start with dragging, which is putting the missile at 6 o'clock and running. Drop some chaff right at the turn (level turn or when you're straight up or down in the vertical). With beaming, drop chaff the whole time.

Dragging can defeat a missile from closer in, or when you have less speed. Beaming requires you to be very fast...700 or 800 knots, and is also less effective when the missile is fired from closer range.

Lastly, it depends on the missile. You can probably beam an R-27 and defeat it pretty easily, but an R-77 is going to require effort and luck (luck = fired early or with significant energy disadvantage from the shooter).

I learned missile evasion by joining the IDFL, International Dogfighting League. Go a few rounds in the BVR session against the slammer and you'll learn quickly. I've seen guys beat a slammer from 11 miles, head on. If you can do that, you can beat anything.

I'm not sure if the IDFL is still active, but practice makes perfect. In the meantime, I'll try to post some ACMIs here in the coming days, unless someone beats me to the punch.

A few anecdotes - I beam an SA-6 and about halfway through its flight time, I reverse the direction I'm beaming (split-S for speed). This seems to work well. SA-2's and -3's can be beat with a rather lazy dive, assuming they're not right under you. They have trouble coming up, then pulling back down into you.

Edit: I second turning off the jammer for the R-77 and dropping the throttle for IR missiles. If you're getting to heat range, you need to be very fast until the merge, then drop to corner or zoom if the speed wasn't necessary to defeat the heat shot. ACMI is your friend - set up TEs with different opponents, knowing their armament. Then record and look at the range they're firing from.

Last edited by chronoPilot; 08/13/08 03:56 PM. Reason: Fighter Pilot beat me

Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
#2567529 - 08/13/08 05:53 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: chronoPilot]  
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What views do you use to defeat missile launches?

If you know it's SARH, you can use the TEWS to beam the enemy jets radar I guess so in that case you would stay heads down.

If its a fire and forget missile, you have to fight the missile and not the enemy jet's radar (if its an active radar missile) so in that case you probably want to see the missile.

Pad lock, 3D pit? Whats you favorite view?

I miss the old inverse tactical view where your jet was in the foreground and the enemy missile was in the background. So easy to beam that way. I have never been as effective since that view went out of vogue.


I have gaming PCs that run everything from MS-DOS 6.22 to Windows 7 64-bit

Win7 Home Prem 64
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ASRock HM77
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8 Gigs GSkill DDR3 1600
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1 TB WD Black SATA II HD
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Antec Neo 550w PS
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TIR4 w/ Clip
Logitech G110 KB
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#2567578 - 08/13/08 07:10 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: Supercobra]  
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Thank you very much guys.

#2567862 - 08/14/08 02:11 AM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: Supercobra]  
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This is what I do in a 1V1 engagement versus Human or Computer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iygmxn1ldVU

Good luck.

Hag

PS forgive the link, it will not allow me to embed here.
PPS A couple notes to the above. In a head to head VS a heater you can deny a heater lock about 95% of the time by bringing your engines back to idle at least 1 minute before the shot. Dropping your engines after the missile launch is too late as the falcon code incorporates a "cooling off" period for the exhaust signature.


-=72VFW=-
#2568129 - 08/14/08 03:28 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: Fighter Pilot]  
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 Originally Posted By: Fighter Pilot

R-77
And descent, descent to 9000 - 12000 feet if possible. Higher air density will bleed the missiles energy.

I wont suggest this.... Since most missiles climb after launch, they'll attack from above. It's better to accelerate in a constent 5-10 degree climb.

If you are below the missile, it has more energy when he reaches you. The key here, is to let it loose energy.

(just my 2 cents)

 Originally Posted By: Fighter Pilot
below 10 nm even imposible.

It's not impossible, but makes it a lot harder to spoof. I personally evaded them from 5 miles....


Falconeer

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#2568255 - 08/14/08 07:15 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: Falconeer]  
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If we're talking AI here, the AI will often break its lock to try and evade your slammer, making the SARH missile useless, which is a behavior I personally find very realistic and reaffirming as to why ARH missiles are what you want to have. Just beware of TEs. They suffer from the common mis-modeling as a BVR missile and are unrealistically deadly as a BVR missile. If an AI Flanker kills me, its usually a TE.


"By the way, even though I know its based on accurate data, it still pisses me off too when I'm about to gun someone and my screen starts to go black. I guess its only natural." - Pete Bonanni
#2568256 - 08/14/08 07:16 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: Falconeer]  
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Last night I believe I got blown out of the sky by an R-77.

My cousin and I were playing multi-player. He was shot up and following me home. I saw 29s on my RWR at 7 O'Clock. Called AWACS, they were 25 mi away. Called for help. Still 70 mi from home, they had closed to 15 miles. I did a 180 and got off an AMRAAM and exploded.

Now maybe I was to task saturated to notice but, I do not recall any lights in the pit that lit up to indicate a launch and all I heard was some chirping, no screaming alarms... like one would expect if they were about to die.

It was entirely to serene of of an environment to explode in \:\)

What indicators do you use to start evading?


I have gaming PCs that run everything from MS-DOS 6.22 to Windows 7 64-bit

Win7 Home Prem 64
i5-3570
ASRock HM77
XFX Radeon HD 6950 2 Gig
8 Gigs GSkill DDR3 1600
500 Gig Samsung 840 SSD
1 TB WD Black SATA II HD
Plextor 24x DVD-RW
ViewSonic VA2702w 1920x1080
HP L2206tm 1920x1080 Multi-Touch Screen
Antec Neo 550w PS
Antec Full Tower Case
Warthog 1663 w/ CH Pro Pedals
TIR4 w/ Clip
Logitech G110 KB
Razer Naga
#2568259 - 08/14/08 07:18 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: UnderTheRadar]  
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Start planning an evasion BEFORE you get any chirps, like dragging soon after you get steady RWR nails and you've launched your weapon. If an ARH platform has you locked, consider that a launch. If you get that steady chirp, your chances of dodging it are not the best.


"By the way, even though I know its based on accurate data, it still pisses me off too when I'm about to gun someone and my screen starts to go black. I guess its only natural." - Pete Bonanni
#2568275 - 08/14/08 08:18 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: RedTiger]  
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Hmm, I wouldn't have turned with them at 15 miles unless AWACS said no support was available and there were no tankers around (you can call AWACS and ask for assistance - they'll send a nearby DCA or BARCAP to "delouse" you). They probably had a good shot by the time you were halfway through your turn and once you were head on, the range was probably well inside 10 miles.

Not sure why you'll get the chirp sometimes, but no indicator. You're supposed to get an "M" inside a diamond, indicating the missile's active radar. I'm not sure if that's a real situation or if it can be a bug that crops up in rapidly changing situations when you're online and the sim can't synchronize all the "high priority" events fast enough. I do know that the RWR has a limited cone above and below your aircraft where it's blind, so if you went vertical, the RWR indicators could've (realistically) glitched.


Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
#2568350 - 08/14/08 10:17 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: RedTiger]  
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 Originally Posted By: RedTiger
Start planning an evasion BEFORE you get any chirps, like dragging soon after you get steady RWR nails and you've launched your weapon. If an ARH platform has you locked, consider that a launch. If you get that steady chirp, your chances of dodging it are not the best.



So the chirp is not a search indicator, it is a lock indicator? If I hear chirps, I am in trouble already?

Odd, you would think it would use a more dramatic indicator than just chirping to let you know you are about to asplode.


I have gaming PCs that run everything from MS-DOS 6.22 to Windows 7 64-bit

Win7 Home Prem 64
i5-3570
ASRock HM77
XFX Radeon HD 6950 2 Gig
8 Gigs GSkill DDR3 1600
500 Gig Samsung 840 SSD
1 TB WD Black SATA II HD
Plextor 24x DVD-RW
ViewSonic VA2702w 1920x1080
HP L2206tm 1920x1080 Multi-Touch Screen
Antec Neo 550w PS
Antec Full Tower Case
Warthog 1663 w/ CH Pro Pedals
TIR4 w/ Clip
Logitech G110 KB
Razer Naga
#2568355 - 08/14/08 10:22 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: chronoPilot]  
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 Originally Posted By: chronoPilot
Hmm, I wouldn't have turned with them at 15 miles unless AWACS said no support was available and there were no tankers around (you can call AWACS and ask for assistance - they'll send a nearby DCA or BARCAP to "delouse" you).


We saw at least one F-16 sweep in and get blown away. I was also very close to Patriot Coverage.

It was a stupid move but the flight was just to get my cousin up to speed w/ Mavs, we were not doing anything that mattered.... besides learning \:\)


 Originally Posted By: chronoPilot
They probably had a good shot by the time you were halfway through your turn and once you were head on, the range was probably well inside 10 miles.

Not sure why you'll get the chirp sometimes, but no indicator. You're supposed to get an "M" inside a diamond, indicating the missile's active radar. I'm not sure if that's a real situation or if it can be a bug that crops up in rapidly changing situations when you're online and the sim can't synchronize all the "high priority" events fast enough. I do know that the RWR has a limited cone above and below your aircraft where it's blind, so if you went vertical, the RWR indicators could've (realistically) glitched.


I did not really get vertical, maybe 5 deg nose high, thats it. I do not specifically recall paying a whole lot of attention to looking at the RWR once I began my turn. I got used to the "atoll, in bound" calls from the original F4. Guess I need more time in AF to learn the ropes.

Thanks for the input guys, it really helps!


I have gaming PCs that run everything from MS-DOS 6.22 to Windows 7 64-bit

Win7 Home Prem 64
i5-3570
ASRock HM77
XFX Radeon HD 6950 2 Gig
8 Gigs GSkill DDR3 1600
500 Gig Samsung 840 SSD
1 TB WD Black SATA II HD
Plextor 24x DVD-RW
ViewSonic VA2702w 1920x1080
HP L2206tm 1920x1080 Multi-Touch Screen
Antec Neo 550w PS
Antec Full Tower Case
Warthog 1663 w/ CH Pro Pedals
TIR4 w/ Clip
Logitech G110 KB
Razer Naga
#2568720 - 08/15/08 02:50 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: UnderTheRadar]  
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 Originally Posted By: UnderTheRadar
 Originally Posted By: RedTiger
Start planning an evasion BEFORE you get any chirps, like dragging soon after you get steady RWR nails and you've launched your weapon. If an ARH platform has you locked, consider that a launch. If you get that steady chirp, your chances of dodging it are not the best.



So the chirp is not a search indicator, it is a lock indicator? If I hear chirps, I am in trouble already?

Odd, you would think it would use a more dramatic indicator than just chirping to let you know you are about to asplode.


It goes something like this; you get nails from a MiG-29 and then you get a spike. You've been locked. You get no launch warning, so you think you're ok. You're not. The MiG has launched his R-77 at you. A few moments later you here "Chirp!" and see a missile indicated on your RWR. This means that his R-77 has gone active. You'll then hear that same type of chirp only much more rapidly and the RWR will indicate that the signal is getting stronger. The missile is closing in on you.

This is realistic and can be supported by accounts from MiG-29 pilots who were shot down by slammers during Allied Force. They didn't get any type of warning until the Aim-120 went active. By that time, it was too late. Same thing applies in F4AF...if you wait until it goes active to try and spoof or shake it, your chances are not great. In reality, from what I've heard and read about F-15 pilots in the Gulf War, if you're locked onto by a bandit within reasonable parameters, it should be considered that a missile has been launced. You won't always get a missile launch warning, even from a SARH apparently, and shouldn't rely on this. This isn't modeled in most sims; you get a nice little launch warning each and every time.


"By the way, even though I know its based on accurate data, it still pisses me off too when I'm about to gun someone and my screen starts to go black. I guess its only natural." - Pete Bonanni
#2568746 - 08/15/08 03:37 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: RedTiger]  
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Crazy, I am used to the older and I guess less realistic games where they made sure you knew you were in trouble.

I will keep practicing and get used to it.

Thanks for the info!


I have gaming PCs that run everything from MS-DOS 6.22 to Windows 7 64-bit

Win7 Home Prem 64
i5-3570
ASRock HM77
XFX Radeon HD 6950 2 Gig
8 Gigs GSkill DDR3 1600
500 Gig Samsung 840 SSD
1 TB WD Black SATA II HD
Plextor 24x DVD-RW
ViewSonic VA2702w 1920x1080
HP L2206tm 1920x1080 Multi-Touch Screen
Antec Neo 550w PS
Antec Full Tower Case
Warthog 1663 w/ CH Pro Pedals
TIR4 w/ Clip
Logitech G110 KB
Razer Naga
#2568849 - 08/15/08 07:07 PM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: UnderTheRadar]  
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 Originally Posted By: UnderTheRadar
Crazy, I am used to the older and I guess less realistic games where they made sure you knew you were in trouble.

I will keep practicing and get used to it.

Thanks for the info!


Hehe..its more a matter of modeling the way ARH is purported to work, or rather the way the Aim-120 works when a bandit is bugged in TWS rather than an STT lock. I have no idea how the radar handles on the very few Russian planes that are capable of carrying ARH missiles and guiding missiles under TWS, but Falcon sometimes takes the blue force hardware and paints it red to provide the player a challenge.


"By the way, even though I know its based on accurate data, it still pisses me off too when I'm about to gun someone and my screen starts to go black. I guess its only natural." - Pete Bonanni
#2569231 - 08/16/08 05:39 AM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: UnderTheRadar]  
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hag Offline
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 Quote:
What indicators do you use to start evading?
1. Radio Chatter
2. AWACS defensive calls
3. The initial 29 spike on the RWR.

Hag


-=72VFW=-
#2569253 - 08/16/08 07:24 AM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: hag]  
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I was thinking...all of them.

the indicators(SA and specs)you don't use is a shorter list.


…dreams of dragon's fire and of things that will bite...sead with one eye open gripping your E-chair tight... Exit light Enter night….Now that’s Entertainment
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#2571442 - 08/20/08 03:00 AM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: Caper]  
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Somewhere was stated:
When you see the flash, it's already too late.

That's for the R77 and slammer.
When you see shiny M on 10-2 o'clock RWR, that means you are late.
That missile is autonomous, you must take into account that first AC spike, and
your flight profile alltogether.
He'll spike you once and launch TE and RE. Sometimes just TE. (R-27)

Ruskies are full of surprises. Their original doctrine is 2 type of missiles at once, 1 sarh and 1 ir.
And even from med. range you are not safe. You won't know what hit you, sometimes.
So our doctrine is maddog (if applicable), chaff/flare and bugout.

ANAPG68 has 60 deg left/right, so why not beam from the beginning ?
Drag them into range and continue dragging so he even don't get shooting solution.
Oh, he's gotta speed and will try to intercept. But you have speed and beam. Show him your a** tail on time \:\)

Yeah, I know sounds easy, standoff ... well better safe then sorry.

Personally I found perfect solution for any type of threat.
When it is about to hit you, you press CTL E, and you've just made the biggest decoy in the air \:\)

cheers
white fang

#2571463 - 08/20/08 03:41 AM Re: Missile evasion. [Re: white_fang]  
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I was playing around with Instant Action today and got the old school feeling from Mig-21s and 29As. They make your RWR make all sorts of scary noises before they kill you.

I guess its the R-77 that is the sneaky bastage.


I have gaming PCs that run everything from MS-DOS 6.22 to Windows 7 64-bit

Win7 Home Prem 64
i5-3570
ASRock HM77
XFX Radeon HD 6950 2 Gig
8 Gigs GSkill DDR3 1600
500 Gig Samsung 840 SSD
1 TB WD Black SATA II HD
Plextor 24x DVD-RW
ViewSonic VA2702w 1920x1080
HP L2206tm 1920x1080 Multi-Touch Screen
Antec Neo 550w PS
Antec Full Tower Case
Warthog 1663 w/ CH Pro Pedals
TIR4 w/ Clip
Logitech G110 KB
Razer Naga

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