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#2509614 - 05/07/08 02:00 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: RedVonHammer]  

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 Originally Posted By: RedVonHammer
And perhaps make the game unplayable unless you have a joystick (Which would eliminate the quick controls and reflexes that a console gamer normally has.)


Now that's retarded. For one thing, console controls are a handicap, not an advantage.

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#2509681 - 05/07/08 03:21 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: ]  
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 Originally Posted By: Benny Moore
 Originally Posted By: RedVonHammer
And perhaps make the game unplayable unless you have a joystick (Which would eliminate the quick controls and reflexes that a console gamer normally has.)


Now that's retarded. For one thing, console controls are a handicap, not an advantage.


It all depends from what side you are coming from. My kids have a PS2 and a WII. They are very dexterous with those controllers more than hamfisted me. But give them a keyboard and mouse and they struggle. A good example is a game from Lego called Bionicles, they have that on PS2 they also have it as a demo on my PC. On the PS2 their fingers are a blur as they whizz through it, on my PC they really struggle. Using a mouse and keyboard is like trying to rub their stomachs and pat their heads at the same time, they aren't comfortable using the PC for gaming. I, on the other hand, am the reverse of that, pretty sharp with a mouse and keyboard and all fingers and thumbs on the PS2 controller.
It really does come down to what you are comfortable with and what you have grown accustomed to.

#2509981 - 05/08/08 04:44 AM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Brigstock]  
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Okay, so when I finally get a keyboard, HOTAS, rudder pedals, and TrackIR to plug into my console, won't it just be a PC that uses as TV for a monitor?

One with proprietary hardware inside that I can't upgrade?

And why do I have a sense of deja vu?


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#2510092 - 05/08/08 12:30 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Dart]  
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 Originally Posted By: Dart
Okay, so when I finally get a keyboard, HOTAS, rudder pedals, and TrackIR to plug into my console, won't it just be a PC that uses as TV for a monitor?

One with proprietary hardware inside that I can't upgrade?


Yep, and it's that reason that I still use a PC for gaming.
But I can see consoles getting more and more involved in the Sim world. Console games sell more and make more money for the game developers. We in the PC based combat flight sim world really are a tiny niche market in the billions of dollars global games world.
A good example of how things are changing is a few years ago your dedicated race sim fan would have his wheel and pedals plugged into his PC playing NasCar or GTL online with comms.
Now he can do exactly that with the XBox...online with comms and part of a global league of players all considerably cheaper than it would be for a similar PC based setup.

Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of consoles for my gaming pleasure, but I think the main reason I'm so resistant is because I'm also a hardware junkie, who loves the smell of new kit and the constant playing with settings to get the best from it all. Not everyone is like that.

If we look at your statement "so when I finally get a keyboard, HOTAS, rudder pedals, and TrackIR to plug into my console, won't it just be a PC that uses as TV for a monitor?"
Lets take the keyboard out of that.
You put the console under your TV. Plug in your HOTAS, pedals and TIR. Headphones and mic on yer head, pop in a disc..choose multiplayer and off you go.

Check out these links
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=12128
http://gameracer.co.uk/detail.aspx?ID=56
that XBox HOTAS is just a ported Saitek X45. Add TIR and Pedal Support all plugged into your 32" HDTV. It's a neat package and hard not to see the potential for future simming be it Car or Flight

#2510322 - 05/08/08 05:38 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Brigstock]  
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Maybe if they made a Console with plug-in upgradable modules like a cpu module, graphics module, harddrive module, Peripheral module, etc...it may work for me.


Intel core I7 4790K @ 4.4
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16 gigs DDR3 2133
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BLack Mamba III Joystick
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Voice Activation Controls
#2510442 - 05/08/08 09:07 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Chivas]  
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Now that's such glorious irony Chivas nice one

Wait a minute you are talking about a PC aren't you

Ming


'You are either a hater or you are not' Roman Halter
#2510504 - 05/08/08 10:22 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Ming_EAF19]  
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Just what I was thinking when I was typing it.

Although the idea may very well work for consoles, depending on the price point of the modules. It may even make the console more profitable, not to mention the developers would have much fewer variation in system setups to worry about.


Intel core I7 4790K @ 4.4
Asus Maximus Hero VII Motherboard
16 gigs DDR3 2133
EVGA GTX980Ti
Oculus Rift
LG 37" LCD
BLack Mamba III Joystick
Cougar Throttle/X55 Throttle/Saitek Levers
Saitek Pro Rudder pedals
Voice Activation Controls
#2510533 - 05/08/08 11:12 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Chivas]  
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 Originally Posted By: Chivas
not to mention the developers would have much fewer variation in system setups to worry about.

and that is what appeals to developers, that and the fact that they can reach a much larger audience.

#2510620 - 05/09/08 02:17 AM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Brigstock]  
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If only they made XBox Office, then I could use my console to do spreadsheets and presentations using my wireless XBox keyboard.

Btw, when are they going to make a friggin' wireless printer? Sheesh.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#2510740 - 05/09/08 09:30 AM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Dart]  
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XBox office...that'll never happen. Just like MSOffice will never get on my "gamebox", nor will any media. I have a laptop with office and a mediacenter for media. My game PC does nothing but games.

XBox is a cpu/gpu/ram/hdd/dvd-rom in a box...so it's a PC, you can get an OS to install on it. Some of the Linux people have managed to get Ubuntu on them.

The only difference between and Xbox and my PC is that my cpu is twice as fast, my graphics are twice as fast, my HDD is twice as big if not more, because I've got watercooling it's half as noisy as an XBox \:\) and it's getting near 10 times as expensive!!. Other than that they are the same animal. I turn it on hit an Icon (IL2 Stab) and play a game. I finish I turn it off. 99% of my browsing/email are done on a laptop while sitting in a big comfy chair in me living room. XBox is a PC and my PC is an XBox how ironic.


BTW Dart http://www.ebuyer.com/product/120353 will do the job for your printer.

#2510772 - 05/09/08 11:33 AM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: ]  
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 Originally Posted By: Benny Moore
Mahoney, I said "serious flight simulator." A simulator where the controls consist of stick, rudder, throttle, guns, and bombs is not a serious flight simulator; it's an arcade game. As Chivas indicated, a serious simulator would have to be "dumbed down" to accomodate the pitiful console controllers, which would make the simulator no longer a serious simulator. That is why I made that flat statement about it being impossible for a serious simulator to succeed on a console.


You have failed to indicate what would need to be removed for a WWI simulator.

I agree there's no way you could have a modern jet sim on a console. You probably couldn't manage a WWII sim. But a WWI sim? Seriously, what would have to be dumbed down?

#2510788 - 05/09/08 12:02 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Mahoney]  
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In response to pitiful console controllers, they are that way because that is all they need at the moment. It does not mean that a console can't take more input from a controller. That XBox HOTAS, for instance, is an X45. That has 6 axis and a serious amount of possible inputs via the buttons. Enough for a Jet sim, easily enough for a WWII based sim and way too much for a WWI sim.
If consoles can up their hardware to current respectable PC spec's, which probably wont happen as they need to keep the cost affordable, there is no reason a Sim can't run on a console.

#2510853 - 05/09/08 01:25 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Mahoney]  
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 Originally Posted By: Mahoney
You probably couldn't manage a WWII sim. But a WWI sim? Seriously, what would have to be dumbed down?

Well grab your dumbells, because we're here to help "pump you up"!

Actually, adding a Wii nunchuk to the PC would be appropriate for approaching the physical requirements needed to manage a WWI fighter.

Imagine changing the pan magazine on an Se5a in a dogfight? Stick in one hand, with the other unlatch the MG lock on the Foster mount and securely ease back the weapon with the lanyard, unlock the magazine and stow it inside the cockpit, grab a loaded drum and place it on the Lewis Gun, ensure it's locked in place, charge the weapon, and then pull the MG back up the rail till it latches again, all against a 100+ mph headwind, while maintaining control of ones aircraft, and avoiding the enemy (if possible). Try creating the animation for that, let alone the interactive control requirements in-game. Then make simmers do it every 97 rounds they fire off:



Note flare gun for signalling in the flight leader's hand in the photo above (gotta grab the nunchuck again).

Simple cockpit management requirements? Again the SE5a and its fuel management system:



Note the air pressure hand pump (nunchuck again).

We could go into greater detail on the methods of identifying the type of MG stoppages that occurred in combat for instance, and the procedures for physically clearing jammed guns in the air, or the proper positioning of radiator shutters to ensure correct engine running temps, or perhaps the requirements for adjusting the fuel lever setting vs. the throttle position to prevent lean or rich cut-out (and the need to do so every 1000 feet or so of altitude changed).

Those that think flying WWI aircraft was somehow easy are harboring grand illusions (mainly because they have no idea what was involved). Certainly these early military aircraft didn't have the array of switches, gauges, and buttons needed to monitor their flight systems, and that's just the point. They flew with brute strength, and managed much of their aircraft's systems by hand, in freezing temperatures, exposed to the elements, and without oxygen assist, and alone without a radio or guidance system to help them back home.

Actually, I don't even think our PCs now can ever do the WWI combat pilot's experience justice, and maybe giving us soft-butted simmers a little physical work to do in our combat games would be a good idea (a PC and nunchuck huh, I like it)! ;\)


#2510905 - 05/09/08 02:39 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: FlyRetired]  
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I'm with you fly, but none of that is modeled in a flight sim. KotS hasn't mentioned it either. Although IIRC there was mention of them looking at drum reloading. We could also apply that thinking to WWII, grabbing the stick with the left hand while furiously pumping the gear up on take off, all the time trying not to wing over. For what is required for a WWI sim compared to a WWII or Jet sim, based on what we have available now, a WWI sim would definitely require less inputs.

While it is a good idea to model all the physical sides of flying it is not possible. Although I haven't flown a WWII combat aircraft, it has been likened to a formula one car. To fly a WWII aircraft required quite a lot of strength and endurance too. The G-Forces would leave a pilot absolutely drained after a dogfight, many pilots lost a lot of weight during the summer of 1940.
In short as to the dumbing down of anything, remember the limitations of any controller on a console lie purely with the controller or the game, not the console.

#2510917 - 05/09/08 02:54 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Brigstock]  
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Less inputs doesn't mean less difficulty. Who works harder, a roofer or an accountant (that outa start some howling). \:D

Perhaps someday all aerial warfare will be managed through robotics, or by sitting behind a monitor with a joystick and keyboard in hand (then will have technology made combat flying easier, or more difficult)?

The point is, as you and others have made, no one ever wants their sims "dumbed-down", but made manageble within the limitations of their game-playing systems.

What you, or I, or others think is "manageable" will always vary anyway.

#2510930 - 05/09/08 03:16 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: FlyRetired]  
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What I'm saying is anything a PC can handle in terms of inputs a console will be able to do. Dumbing down is the wrong terminology. We must remember that the console is a computer it is limited by it's CPU and GPU not what it's controller can do. A console standard controller is designed the way it is because that is what is required, those same controllers plug into a windows box. People here are talking about "dumbing down" based on what a controller can do or not do. That is not a real issue. What is an issue is the processing/graphic output of a console, but that is getting better. Any dumbing down would be on graphics and the complexity a console could handle.

What is manageable is not debatable and wont vary. Most games can be ported and the content edited to produce acceptable playability. We will have no say in what we find acceptable. But then again the developer of the product can make those decisions knowing that it will work across the whole of his customer base, because everyone has the same kit.

#2510939 - 05/09/08 03:32 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Brigstock]  
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 Originally Posted By: Brigstock
But then again the developer of the product can make those decisions knowing that it will work across the whole of his customer base, because everyone has the same kit.

And with consoles is a whole lot easier to manage than with the variations of hardware & OS configurations involved with our PCs.

Give me a good gaming box that I can play sims on, and I don't care what it's called.

(we spend way too much on our rigs in order to play games we'll complain cost us $50 )

#2511003 - 05/09/08 04:38 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: FlyRetired]  
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 Originally Posted By: FlyRetired


(we spend way too much on our rigs in order to play games we'll complain cost us $50 )

My wife totally agrees \:\)

Over the last two years I've spent in excess of 2000's on my PC. What does an Xbox cost...180.

#2511101 - 05/09/08 05:54 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: Brigstock]  
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LOL Brig, mine too!

I could have gotten a complete John Cooper Works performance package for the MINI Cooper, for what I've put into this gaming rig!

(a lot safer behind my PC anyway)

Hey, you had mentioned WWII aircraft in the context of piloting skill required, and that reminded me of what Air Chief Marshal Leigh-Mallory called the "finest piece of airmanship thus far in World War II", and it didn't involve fighter combat, nor a bombing mission, or landing on a pitching carrier deck, or any such thing.....it came at the hands of Staff Sargeant Wallwork, C Squadron, Glider Pilot Regiment, leading three wooden Airspeed Horsa gliders carrying assault troops to a pinpoint crash-landing next to their D-Day objective, the Canal de Caen bridge near Ranville, Normandy. On Wallwork's shoulders (and wings), rested perhaps the success of Operation Overlord, or at least the security of the British seaborne landings in France, for he was charged with flying into combat the lead Horsa that fateful night, on a one-way trip into enemy occupied territory, to enable his assault troops the best chance of seizing their objectives as soon as possible, with minimum casualties, so they could prevent the Germans from flanking the English beacheads as the day dawned. He landed exactly as planned, no touch and go possible, and all stick and rudder!

Btw, Dad was a glider infantryman in the US 82nd Airborne Division during WWII, so I'm apt to be a bit sympathetic to the history of the glider pilots. ;\)

#2511159 - 05/09/08 07:13 PM Re: Possibility of a port to a game console? (Xbox 360 or PS3) [Re: FlyRetired]  
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This explains a few things FR, I'd Salute! you if we were in uniform. Your Dad too

Ming


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