SRTM data will be perhaps better for Africa.

In 1941/42, the areas around Tobruk and Alamein had no forests, no rivers, and only ONE paved road.

Dark_au -

I must confess to being annoyed by 1_M - he spent a lot of time ranting about old Soviet topo maps, but didn't answer ANY of your questions. Also, he made no effort to provide links to the topo maps, so his comments are of no utility to anyone interested in modding SF. Note that SRTM data is used by both the US Navy and NASA, so any problems are likely due to SF's software.

On the subject of terrain maps, I spent a lot of time watching the then/now video of the sim's terrain. While certainly impressive - the terrain has excellent small-scale detail - I noticed something that I would like to discuss: the comparatively small size of the maps. In many cases the not-very-distant terrain was truncated or eliminated to fit the 2km by 2km map size. 2km by 2km is barely large enough for one engagement, let alone the multiple series of engagements that typify the fluid mobile warfare of a WW2 tank battle.

While this is not a problem in close terrain, in more open terrain (desert, steppes, open farmland, etc) it may be a severe limitation? Just out of curiosity, are there any plans to improve Steel Beasts' rudimentary graphics and perhaps expand into WW2 combat?

uberGeezer

I actually thought 1_m's comments on russian maps was ironical or tongue in cheek to be honest.

Though I do agree that the lack of answers to my questions is quite vexing.

The SRTM data used by militaries isn't the same resolution as that available to the public domain. I believe that Nasa originally scanned all of the 90m data set at 30m but it was downgraded for the public domain. I am aware of some 10m resolution SRTM and a lot of 10M DTED data which is available to the military. All that is moot though as none of it would be any good for the scales described for SF maps. To get that level of detail you would need 1:25k or better topo maps scanned in at a good resolution. None of which is going to be believable with the repeating nature of the heightmap. In that respect the engine seems best suited to the repetetive/monotonous russian landscape.(based on what I've read of the russian landscape, not from personal experience).

I don't think its just the map size which leads to a lack of real mobile warefare. The lack of control of other units would seem to really limit the tactical possibilities.

As regards to SB and WWII.... I wish... I know a lot of people who would sell their own mothers for that.

Many of us here have enjoyed 1_M's insights on the development of Steel Fury these past months, and might find it a problem to hear someone characterize his mindful input on this forum as "ranting". Additionally, most of us will be buying Steel Fury primarily because we're interested in playing the game.

Although 3rd-party modding might be considered important to some, it's highly doubtful that this will be the first factor that most enthusiasts weigh before they decide to purchase Steel Fury. Furthermore, Steel Fury is based on a military operation that was fought on the Eastern Front, and has been developed by a Ukrainain company named GraviTeam based in Kharkov, and if the sim turns out to be a success, then many of us will be looking forward to their continued progress and potential future offerings, irregardless if anyone has a desire to mod their products or not.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion - but so am I. Whether you care to describe 1_M's remarks as "ranting" or otherwise, my observations still stand:
1) 1_M did NOT answer Dark_au's questions
2) After pointing out the desirability of the Soviet topo data - AND acknowledging the language difficulty - 1_M did not provide any assistance in locating this superior information.

Additionally, the thread is clearly dedicated to MODDING SF - not a general discussion of SF as a sim. If you consider modding a secondary consideration - which is clearly your prerogative - why concern yourself with the comments of people who ARE concerned about modding? That is clearly THEIR prerogative.

GraviTeam, 1_M, and really no one else in the know concerning the development of Steel Fury:Kharkov 42 owes you any answers concerning modability.

Don't like the answers you've received, simple, wait for the game's release.

Flyretired i disagree. Modability is a selling point the dev team has been advertising. Wanting to know the details of the claimed modability is obvious to see whether its what we the customers want. I don't want a game i can only play... Modding games is one of the main factors in a games longevity to me. Graviteam have mentioned the ability to make your own maps. This is an area of modding that i have a strong interest and lots of experience in. I am trying to find out details of this factor of the game so that I can be prepared with tools to accomplish this.

I have a side project I work on which is a fractal landscape generating tool. I want to work out whether I can convert this to help me make SF maps or whether I will have to buy some additional software to do it.

Nothing wrong with modding.

Perhaps you should wait for Steel Fury's release, if your expectations are not satisfied by the answers you've received here.

Until the day arrives that any of us can design a simulation product from the ground up, no doubt we'll be at that point where modding drives the marketplace. Until that day comes, we'll all be subordinate to the fact that design teams create the code, and do the heavy lifting by taking the risks when it comes to game creation, and modding is dependent on their skills and decisions.

If you're not satisfied with the decisions or answers a commercial developer might have forwarded concerning efforts they've put into their project to allow for modding, then you certainly have the option, and we'll welcome your progress, at designing your own fully-modable product.

Graviteam have created "Steel fury: Kharkov 1942"
Graviteam has been advertising:

1.Realistic physics,
2.Destroyed objects,
3.Deformed landscape,
4.Day and night missions,
5.Adjusted gameplay,
6.Changing weather conditions,

And also:

- 30 missions united in 3 campaigns,
- 5 single missions
- More than 40 kinds of technics,
- Historical reliability,
- Scale fights,
- Possibility of management of the tank from within and from the third party,
- Role change in tank crew
+ Original soundtrack

+ Has been created Modability in addition to game.

+ Also there is a manual to the editor
+ Video lessons to the editor

P.S. Discussion of release of game in the west is not finished yet.
In this connection we now cannot answer all your questions.
Graviteam has transferred the rights to "STEEL FURY"
The producer solves all legal questions
A number of documents on nondisclosure is signed

You are absolutely right
It is certainly necessary.
to wait for a "STEEL FURY" exit in the west

Best Regards
Vladimir Zayarny
general director "GRAVITEAM"

Ok. I do not speak in English, I do not write in English. I at all do not know English language!
If you have found irony in my messages in it my ironic auto-translator is guilty.





Actually I do not understand 50 % of the text of your questions + NDA.
And how it is possible to answer questions if you never saw the SF editor?

About SRTM data (I have in view of popular SRTM-3 = 90m), I speak not as the theorist, and as an practical man. I tried them to apply in new game to the much greater area, than 2x2 km. Result unsatisfactory for SF editor, in which possible accuracy = 1x0.1 meter. And I have been compelled to refuse their use.
I only tried to warn you against it. Speaking about discrepancy SRTM-3 of data, I had in view of in a greater degree Eurasia. For Africa they possibly quite will approach, as has been told Dark_au, topo-maps have even greater discrepancy.

Topo maps 1:100000 can be found in the Internet. Maps 1:50000 and are larger (territories of the xUSSR) go with a mark Top Sicret and you will not find them, is possible only their tourist analogues for sports orientation.



It seemed to me that I not about weather forecast talk too. Though I can be mistaken.

Good luck

1:50k maps of Russia, ukraine etc are available online:-

http://maps.poehali.org/en/



1_m that was the comment that seems to have vexed Ubergeezer and which I thought was you bieng Ironical or tongue in cheek.



These are things listed as external to the SF editor. It is quite easy for me to understand these things without ever having seen the SF editor. These are what I would like to know more about and if possible get a sample of. I can't see that this sort of Data would be covered by an NDA and if it is then I'm worried about what is bieng hidden from us.

Vector maps? Them do on the basis of SRTM-3 data.
Military Topographic Maps 1:100000 (xUSSR) go with a mark "for internal using" and they can be found. The part of Crimea can be found 1:50000 with the cut off drawing scale.




not NDA. Here an example going on DVD with game.
http://rapidshare.com/files/82566496/lesson_data.zip
View in folder /LESSON_DATA/SOURCE/LEVELS/envs/poly01_temp/

Thanks

Obviously, you are unfamiliar with the enormous mod communities that form around the more successful games and sims - the many hundreds of forum mod comments about Operation Flashpoint as it morphed into Arma are but one example of modder involvement BEFORE the sim is released.

The small group of guys who actally MAKE tank mods have been bumping into each other on the internet since the release of Panzer Elite back in 1999, and that group has learned a number of valuable lessons through the years. One of the most important such lessons is developer support and dialog - lack of which triggered the earlier remarks.

Because we know what to look for, we are rapidly becoming disillusioned with BOTH of the tank sims being developed. One comment posted on a different forum described them as the superficially attractive blonde you take home for a one-night-stand, but isn't worth a long-range commitment.

As a group we have been there and done that, and we generally know what we are talking about.

Then don't expect much mod activity.

uberGeezer

You desire these sims to showcase your mod work, and then complain of being disillusioned.

You characterize one of the contributors answers as "ranting", when he's tried to offer his explanations as best he can in words not his native language, and then criticize his actions as demonstrating a lack of "developer support and dialog".

We don't need disillusioned modders.

As potential consumers, each of us will make our own decisions about Steel Fury, and if you think you can't mod the sim to your satisfaction, that's a shame.

We don't buy mods......they give those away for free.

No personal offence to you FlyRetired, but I take great exception to your statment
"We don't buy mods......they give those away for free."

You are correct, most MODs are free. They are free because modders bust there but and give of there free time to create something they desire. When it's not free they call it computer software and soak you for $ reguardless of the quality.

Life is great when you have thousands of people willing to give a few hours of there time for a genra like flight sims and FPS. When you have a smaller community, what is given to create is a great amount of time.

Now lets slowy step off the soap box and ramble why blood preasure returns to nomal

Think about this question;
Why has the world waited until now for a skilled development house to create a successor to PE? Well, I believe they did not think the genra is woth the expence.

That statement makes me want to say:
I hope you choke on any mod I created, or any mod created by a person I helped learn how to mod. I spent years learning how to mod because I cound not buy it. I want to PUKE and remove all my work from the net everytime an ingrate makes a similar statement. To me, you become nothing more then a leach.

I think Geezer is voicing his frustration of the years of empty promisses since PE. The hours he puts into his models and art are large. My experaince is that I have felt the same, but to this day regret some of the actions when I felt that way.

I publicly questioned my involvment and probably fostered the exact paranoia I was tring to stop.

I removed myself from any present mod project because I did not have the information needed for modding and I knew I would have to wait for the devs to release what they think is there best business model. It was also pointed out to me that I needed to gauge any perspective results with my perceived perfection. I have better things to do then meet the end users desire for a "MOD". I do it for me, because I am passionate about what I think can be achived, and because I WANT what I think can be the final outcome.

It is not my intent to ridicule more then the one quote. It is my alterior motive to try and bridge some gap between those who are willing to put forth the effort and the devs who can give them the basis to work from.

I urge the modders and devs to discuss privatly what can and can not be done at this time, and work from there. Don't throw away a chance to meet the desires of each party.

The end users, I must honestly say I have no respect for. I can get "payed" for serving them a double cheeseburger. They are sheep who will buy anything to fill there free time. ;)<i> now who is trolling with disperaging comments. </i>

Sorry for the poor spelling and the rambeling thoughts!
Allen

We are attempting to do that. Please note the following:
1) The stated purpose of the thread was to recruit anyone, regardless of experience, who was willing to work long and hard to produce SF mods.
2) A number of guys stepped up to the plate, but most of them withdrew later. Their reasons varied but that is OK - everyone has the right to decide how they spend their leisure time.
3) While I concede I could have been more tactful, the thread was rapidly drifting off-topic and no longer served its stated purpose.
4) The small number of guys who are willing to do the work are privately discussing SF mods to avoid the unnecessary distractions of Monday-morning quarterbacks. This is unfortunate, but that's the internet.

Roughly 90% of the gaming community appreciate the efforts of the mod community and avoid uninformed criticism of the mod process. When that 90% is given the opportunity to comment, their views are usually insightful and appreciated. At some later date, the SF mod association will start another thread and inform the gaming community of our communication with the developers and resulting plans.