Yep, that's the "Tresher", an apparently unrecorded sister-ship to the "Thresher", a Tambor-class submarine. Must've run out of H's at the UBIStore.

I hope I can survive the war as well as the Thresher did.

HA! And here I was going to encourage you to 'check your spelling.'

Here ya go . . . from SubSim:


Just find that file and edit. That is, if you have any H's left at your house.

You can just see that those Romanian Developers were "on the ball" and correctly checked their resources before putting out this game...

Next time an Eastern European company does a sim about a Western European/American subject, it might behove them to hire a Western European or American to, if nothing else, spell check . . .

Thanks, I'll do that. One of the things I enjoy about American subs vs. German is that they have names, and thus personalities. It was always a little hard for me to get very fond of U-571.

No offense guys, but this is getting into the realm of nit picking.

There are problems with the game, several in fact but I haven't found a title released by anyone where I cannot find errors like this.

It happens. Sometimes proofreaders miss things.

I posted it because I thought it was humorous ... and you have to admit that it is unlikely a dev team that included a few U.S. Navy (even amateur) historians would have got any of the submarine names or the U.S. Navy medals wrong.

I'm not slagging on you HammFist. I'm just talking to those that will go beserk over a typo. That could happen with any game, US or foreign.

The US Medals is something different. It isn't difficult to find the correct listing of US Navy Medals and make a correct listing. I have a real problem with that. What is frustrating is that the development team should have realized that many would have a problem with that. It would be no different if the team made a game based upon their home country and got all of their medals wrong. Trust me, they would have gotten flak from the locals. They should have realized that the true players of this game, the types that will follow it for a while, will not like a lot of the psueodo medals that came with the game.

I also have a real problem with some of the other 'features' like the North Carolina class BBs in port right after Pearl Harbor, the odd traffic you see in ports like Wake (stopped there before it was overrun-an awful lot of ships there) and some of the other innacuracies. Those are legitimate gripes.

This is a bug but one the devs can fix in 2 seconds for the next patch. At the same time I want them to really concentrate on the hard stuff, the stuff that should have been correct.

Don't take it personal. BTW, are the SkySox still playing there? I was stationed at Fort Carson for 3 years, I own some retirement property up in Buena Vista. I should head that way again to check on it and to see some family back in Colorado Springs. I have an Aunt and Uncle there.

The funny thing about the medals situation (in case you don't know) is that some of the SubSim mod-types have delved into the files and happened to find a file with all of the correct medals. Go figure.

Hammfist, I agree about the personality thing. I want to eventually command the USS Drum . . . I got to go aboard the Drum in Alabama and walk all the way through (including climbing to the persicope station and taking a peek). That will certainlly add personality to a sub. I highly recommend going to a naval museum that has a WW2 sub on display to really see what it's like inside. I don't know about others places, but in the Drum they had sub veterans who acted as tour guides. I asked them what movie came closest to accurately depicting WW2 sub life and without pause several of them answered "Das Boot."

Yes, we still have the Sky Sox. They beat the Rockies on Friday -- not that that is a big accomplishment.

Buena Vista is a nice area ... and it really hasn't changed all that much over the last 20 years. Too far from civilization to get real popular I guess.

That's why I bought five acres out there. A whole lot of nothin.

Might look you up if I come up to the Springs this year. I remember some italian place near that theatre downtown that my wife loved. It might be nice to take her there again.

Not sure how I would introduce her to a guy named hammfist.

Chuckle.

Just give me a heads up before you come. When Mad Max and I tried to get together when he was visiting, I forgot to tell my son that I was expecting an important call from an Aussie. My son assumed it was a telemarketer and I never got the word Max called. I'll try not to make that mistake again.

Certainly. My son is 9, probably would do the same thing.

I am not sure but am trying for August to come out. I figure I can take Danny (my kid) to the Royal Gorge, maybe Cripple Creek (actually other ghost towns, CC is too commercial these days) and so on. I might actually take him white water rafting, although his isn't as adventurous as his old man.

Lots and lots do to do in Colorado. Might even go up to Ft. Carson and look around, see if anyone I know is still up at the Army Hospital.

Guys,

Thanks for pointing out the error with the Thresher. Just a small missing h. Sorry about it, it will of course be corrected in the next patch.

As for the medals, belive me we would have liked to LEAVE the correct medals in the game. But, if the US Institute of Heraldry says we can't, I suppose we can't do it. Anyway, it was not our call, and in now way it was meant as making fun of the real awards of the US Navy.

Wait a minute.

You are telling me the United States Government is telling you that you cannot include correct medals for the time period in this game?

This has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

I would love to find out which moron in the State Department came up with this idea. I have the feeling that he is about to get about five thousand angry letters from United States Citizens. I find it interesting that America's Army can use medals in their game (a blatant recruiting tool) and other US based games have never had this problem.

Let me know who this moron is that sent this to you. I would love to find out what the rationalle is?

Elanaiba, thanks for pointing that out. I have nothing to say that Tom Cofield hasn't already said about the medals situation . . . except thanks for including the correct file for the modders to find.

Also, pass on my thanks to your team for the work on SH3 and now the further work on SH4.

I was really upset about the bogus medals as well as the real ones that were incorrect,and very few people seemed to care,.... especially over at Subsim, but its my guess that a large number of folks on that forum could give a sweet S...t about American combat medals,anyway.
Lastly,....
I agree with Tom. This State Department thing is just a plain load of crap.I dont believe it at all. The US Institute Of Heraldry can........"No Chris you'll get barred".

I'm back to playing SHIII with some great new mods,and really enjoying my time spent.

I just have ONE Question that is bugging the heck out of me, who or what is the US Institute Of Heraldry anyway? I think you contacted the wrong people here myself.

Any way we could have it as an in-game option, maybe? I mean, the correct files are in there (except for the crew member screen), so why not go all the way and just make it an option?

Tom and all of you on this thread.
I got very angry and as I see it broke the rules on this forum.
I dont believe I have ever gotten this angry in the past on this forum in the five years or so that I have been a member in good standing.
Please accept my apologies.I sincerly mean that.

The thing that has really been eating away at me,especially over at Subsim and not here (again my problem to bring that anger over here)is how they have dismissed this as not something very important is beyond me.
Nimits was the first to bring this up to my attention on a thread he made.He seemed quite upset.
I went off like a rocket here in the safety of my space.I am a multible recepient of two of those awards and my whole life was changed probably for the worse because of those experiences,and make no mistake about it.Game or no game,I took that very seriously.
I'll let it go,and again my apology.

Yes however, that is the United States Army Institute of Heraldry, what does that have to do with the NAVY?

Speaking as a current serving US military member, this may have been a case where it would have been better to ask forgiveness than permission . . . While I believe it is better than it used to be, there are still a lot of people in any large organization who would rather just say no, especially if it is a foreign, former Soviet Bloc country involved, just because it is simpler and safer (from their end) then saying yes. Just about every other wargame/simulation made in the last 10 years has used those medals without a problem, AFAIK.

Anyway, this is not a State Department issue. The organization in question is part of the US Army (and their website is a .mil, rather than .gov domain).

I am curious if there might have been a mistunderstanding on one or both ends. The disclaimer on the front page of the site (as narrowly interpreted by an admitted layman) would seem to me to apply only to those images on the site; if the images of the medals came from another source, permission would not be neededed. US Title 18, Section 704 applies, according to my reading, to those making acutal imitation medals and/or falsely wearing or distributing real ones.

The only applicable law is CFR 32 Part 507. The thing is, if this is strictly interpreted to apply to all computer games, just about any computer or arcade game ever published featuring the US military would be in violation of this regulation, since ANY US Army or Air Force insignia, emblem, rank, medal, patch, ribbon, etc would be covered. The Attorney General's office would have one heck of a case load. The thing is, (again speaking as a legal novice here), the wording the regulation leads me to believe it is NOT intended to be applied electronic media. It talks about granting permission to use certain designs if the manufacturer agrees to sell the product only in AAFES stores. I think the point of CFR 32, Part 507 is to prohibit any Tom, Dick, or Hanes from deciding "wouldn't be a good idea to make some tee-shirts with the 101 Airborne emblem or the 1st Fighter Wing patch, or Medal of Honor bikinis, and sell them to the general public at Wal-Mart for a big profit." I could be wrong, but as long as the computer game did not make a name for itself disparging the or criticizing the US military or government, I don't think the US Attorney's Office was going to go hunting after Ubi Soft or our Romanian friends just for using some mini-sized images of Navy medals in their correct historical context. Frankly, they probably never would have heard of Silent Hunter 4 if nobody said anything.


Also note that CFR 32 only applies to Army and Air Force medals, not Navy . . .

P.S. There may very well be another Federal regulation for Navy stuff . . .

No Problem there RDDR! Its All Fine and Dandy! I am also NOT too happy with this either, because this is supposed to be a US Navy Simulation and Ubisoft has been "supposed" to keep the realism on these sims as correct as possible. I am NOT trying to rebuke Ubisoft Romania, however the reason that elanaiba gave about that "heraldry", which is the US Army NOT the Navy, does NOT hold water in my thoughts.

I am in the progress of writting the SimHQ review of SH4 right now, and this is absolutely going to be addressed within it prominently.

Well, going by the website, they do keep track of some Navy and Coast Guard stuff too . . .

Beyond that, who knows . . . if this the is group our Romanian friends contacted, it may be (though I am honestly not sure either way) they contacted the wrong people . . .

Nimits I think you've hit the nail on the head in your previous post.

elanaiba,
What are you talking about? Did you get some notification regarding medals? It would not have come from the Institute of Heraldry; they are not the enforcing agency. There is nothing I know of which prevents the artistic representation of medals. If there were, one could not paint a portrait soldiers in uniform with medals. Ubisoft is selling games right now, which do contain representations of US medals, such as Pacific Fighters. What is this about?

I have a name. I will be contacting him.

The website is under the total control of the Secretary of the Army, so it is a Department of Defense, and not under the State Department.

Here is the definition of Title 18, US Code of Federal Regulations, Section 704. The Institute of Heraldry is using this regulation



You know when this code was enacted?

1949.

Essentially this was a code designed to prevent people from producing and wearing medals that were not awarded to them, or from selling military awards without permission from the Department of Defense.

I am wondering how anyone could figure that this covers an electronic creation of awards for a stupid video game. Using the logic from this then anyone who paints a picture of the EIB or Airborne Wings and then sells it would be guilty of violating this law. Every video game company should have been banned from producing any kind of US medal in their game.

This is ridiculous.

I worked last night so I could not write to this guy (when I awoke it was after 5pm in DC, I am sure he went home). I will write to him tomorrow and see if there is some kind of explanation concerning this.

Thanks, Tom. I hope you get a response.

If Ubisoft is anything like the company I work for, all stuff like this needs to pass through their legal department who usually err on the side of caution in order to avoid the sue-happy mentality that has been prevalent the past few years against video games. And like in many cases, the Law and Common Sense don't always go together :(.

Hopefully this can get straightened around or else a mod released for it (mod-able games rock).

Thanks for stopping by our little corner of the internet and shedding some light on the complicated world of game development. It seems unlikely to me that the U.S. Army Institute of Heraldry would have any control whatsoever over images of Navy medals, as long as they aren't copied from their site.

I suspect there was a misunderstanding. Regardless, as long as the users (who care) can mod the game to make them correct, that is all that is required.

... and thanks for making a sim that can be modded to do whatever anyone could want -- us offline-only guys appreciate it.

IF that was the case you would think they would curtain some of the stuff in the Rainbow series of games. I am sure that they have violated the same regulation.

In my experience, its not so much regulation or precedence, but what mood legal is in when the request was made.

A little story, at my job we need to get legal approval for any application tools we use in development. One tool we wanted to use had a Free As In Beer license. Much to our shock we were denied. Luckily it was something that was very simple and only took one of us a day to whip it up ourselves, but still it left us scratching our heads. Later we found out another team in the company was using the same tool.

Interesting. I just received a catalog today from a company called "Cheaper Than Dirt"..they sell firearms supplies and other military-type stuff: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ On page 68 of their catalog they have two U.S. military medals for sale:

Vietnam Service Medal- Original U.S. service medal with pendant and service ribbon, complete with clip and bar, new in box. $9.97

POW Medal - Original U.S. military Prisoner of War set, complete with corresponding ribbon. Original condition, in box. $19.97

So I guess you can sell them...the "except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law" is a pretty broad term I would guess...

BeachAV8R

And Beach, technically they are violating the law. So are all the folks selling these ribbons on e-bay and such. Technically, if you wear a Civil War ribbon in a reinactment you are violating the regulation.

The Rationalle behind the reg is actually good, it keeps PX soldiers from running around wearing fake medals. Unfortunately, it is impossible (without a DD214 or orders awarding the medal) to know who is authorized to wear such and such medal. In reality, it is very easy to fake things, to make yourself look better than you are. But there is a law against it, and you can get in trouble.

32 C.F.R. § 507.11 Reproduction of designs.

(a) The photographing, printing, or, in any manner making or executing any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any decoration, service medal, service ribbon, badge, lapel button, insignia, or other device, or the colorable imitation thereof, of a design prescribed by the Secretary of the Army or the Secretary of the Air Force for use by members of the Army or the Air Force is authorized provided that such reproduction does not bring discredit upon the military service and is not used to defraud or to misrepresent the identification or status of an individual, organization, society, or other group of persons.
_________________

Reckon this might make a difference? Keep in mind that this is not legal advice. I merely ask the question. By the way, part of Section 507 allows the possession of medals, but forbids wearing them. So the eBay sellers are seemingly okay, as are collectors.

Miao, Cat

Yep this means that Ubisoft can correct this situation in an upcoming "repair" patch. And what still gets me concerning this is what does the US Navy, have with the Army and Air Force medals?

The other day thinking I was helping these folks who were in the process of attempting to create proper medals for the Sim over at Subsim,I explained to this guy that if you are awarded the Bronze Star for your action in combat it is presented to you with a bronze V Device that pinned on the medals ribbon.Only for combat.
If it is presented without the V device it then is being presented for what they refer to as Meritorious achievement.Thats the jist of it.
What upset me was that no one seemed to care much..I also took the time to get mine and photographed it with my digital camera and posted it so he could see and understood exactly what it looks like. He was less than enthusiastic about fixing the descrepincy.
I know it's only a Sim...however.I wonder if Ubisoft will get it right?
We should all want them to get it right.

Actually no Cat, if you look at the other reg I listed above it covers selling such medals. You have to be approved by the US Government to sell military medals. It isn't really followed closely though, as evidenced by the sale of medals on E-bay. But if the US Government wanted to crack down they could.

You gotta remember RDDR that most people who play this game are civilians with little or no background in the military, or at least the US military. Yeah, a bronze star with the V device is much different than a regular bronze star (both can only be awarded in wartime, one for direct combat action, the other for service during a time frame during a combat operation) but most people just know 'bronze star'. Don't be too hard on them, at least they acknowlege there is a medal.

OK..Understood.

Good find. I will see what may come of this, though I'll be outta town for about 3 weeks starting tomorrow.

Take a laptop so you don't have to stop patching. Just kidding, have a safe trip.

Fortunately I don't own a laptop :D. Besides, I think I'll take that "Post captain" book with me... and am looking forward to reading it.

SECNAVINST 1650.1H

121. PROTECTION OF AWARDS. 18 U.S.C. S704 prohibits, and
imposes a suitable penalty for the unauthorized wear,
manufacture, or sale of any decoration, medal, or ribbon which
has been or may be authorized by the Armed Forces of the United
States, except under regulations made under law.

Title 18 Section 704 in United States Code:

(a) In General.— Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
(b) Congressional Medal of Honor.—
(1) In general.— If a decoration or medal involved in an offense under subsection (a) is a Congressional Medal of Honor, in lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(2) Definitions.—
(A) As used in subsection (a) with respect to a Congressional Medal of Honor, “sells” includes trades, barters, or exchanges for anything of value.
(B) As used in this subsection, “Congressional Medal of Honor” means—
(i) a medal of honor awarded under section 3741, 6241, or 8741 of title 10 or section 491 of title 14;
(ii) a duplicate medal of honor issued under section 3754, 6256, or 8754 of title 10 or section 504 of title 14; or
(iii) a replacement of a medal of honor provided under section 3747, 6253, or 8747 of title 10 or section 501 of title 14.

Too bad there is no definition for "colorable imitation." That is the only one that comes close to including computer games. I'd want to know if that means a "tangible" imitation or does it include a "virtual" imitation. The reason it may make a difference is that these laws were written before computer games. However, they weren't written before cinema, and as far as I know, medals have been displayed on actors . . . so that is a precedent for "virtual" imitation.

The only thing I could find - but in the copyright part of the code:

The term “colorable imitation” includes any mark which so resembles a registered mark as to be likely to cause confusion or mistake or to deceive.

Maybe with the post processing filters, the Department of Heraldry thought they were looking at real medals.

The problem is that the code was created immediatley after WW2, probably to prevent a rash of 'instant heroes'. It was never intended for something like this.

No response yet, I will see if he writes back Monday. Who knows, there may have been a three day weekend for fed employees in Washington.

Did this guy write back to you and specifically state that you cannot make medals in this game because of this regulation? I cannot believe that Ubi wouldn't at least try to challenge this one. I mean, this 'ruling' from what really is nothing more than a mid level clerk will affect a lot more than just SHIV, it will affect the entire Rainbow line as well as any other military shooter out there. In reality, if they put jump wings on a character technically, according to this clerk, they are violating the statute.

I might want to point this out to Ubi if they are bending over and taking it in the shorts for this game. They will lose more than just some medals in what is to them a marginal (but not to me) profit game. The whole Rainbow series could be affected.

Yeah, but if you read the whole regulation, with the restriction that some articles may be sold if they are only sold in military stores, it is quite obvious they are not talking about media (e.g. movies, books, or games). There has never been to my knowledge an attempt to force the recall or exclusive sale in AAFES of war movies or works of history or fiction including pictorial representations of the medals. The closes too it is that I have heard the DoD often requires that a movie using military uniforms puts them together with some small error, usually something like a ribbon in the wrong order of precedence so as to enture the military is not legally endorsing the film, but again that would not really apply here.

Anyway, using a little common sense, I find it hard to imagine that anybody would confuse the medals in SH4 with the real thing . . .

And RDDR, I appreciate your service, but do not be too hard on the guys on the SubSim forum. I think the guy doing the medal editting is not trying to brush you off so much as he is not really interested in doing any graphics editting all (understandable, since it requires much more time and effort than simple text file editting).

Hey Nimits,
I've cooled off and told myself to grow up.
Might even re download and start from scratch again tonight.
Chris