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#1779657 - 01/05/07 07:45 PM Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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AV8R Offline
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Yes, I did my homework at TomsHardware.com
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=438&model2=433&chart=166

No, I dont mind asking for help.
In fact I invite the knowledge of the many perspectives and flightsimming users.
(I use FalconAf, Lomac, IL2, MSFSX, 3rdWire)

Folks im down to two systems for my next
flight simming system. These two systems are almost identically priced and featured. Its coming down to processor type. (Ive already decided on Intel over AMD, so bear with me and no offense meant).

Which is the better choice and why for a flight simmer to choose for the next couple of years?

Door #1:
Intel Pentium D Processor 945, 3.4GHz, 2GB RAM (dual uPs)
http://www.intel.com/products/processor/pentium_D/index.htm

Door #2:
Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6400, 2.13GHz, 2GB RAM (Intel Viiv Technology)
http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller...ature/index.htm
http://www.intel.com/core2duo/c2e.htm?iid=mtply_overview_tab_c2e (gaming perspective)

Apparently the D processor is cheaper and has a faster core; but doesnt perform as well as the DUO for QUAKE (why dont they use FLIGHTSIMS). The DUO is 64 bit vs the 32 bit of the D sequence uP.

When it comes to simming and Vista on the horizon, whats the arguements for making a choice?

Not to bias you, but im leaning towards the DUO2.

Thank you

AV8R


AV8R
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#1779658 - 01/05/07 09:15 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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suntrace1 Offline
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C2D is:
- cooler,
- faster,
- newer,
- 64 bit
- no RAM limit
- great OC potential (with good mobo, cooling and RAM)
- works better with DX10 gfx cards

Don't know if it has more L2 cache, but even so, what's not to like?

#1779659 - 01/05/07 09:37 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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Arthonon Offline
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IMHO, C2D, definitely. All the things suntrace1 said, and for me especially the newer, because I figure the D series is probably on its way out, which would make it more difficult to get upgrades in the future.

I bought an E6600 system a few months ago, and it's smooth, stable, and about twice as fast as my older system, which was Athlon64 3200 based.

64-bit is not really a factor yet, I don't think, and Vista probably won't change that (most versions are not 64-bit, and the 64-bit version has some "extras" that can limit access to some content).


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#1779660 - 01/05/07 11:37 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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AV8R Offline
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How does a dual 2.13ghz outperform a dual 3.4ghz dual core uP?

I havent read anything yet that breaks down the technology that explains this.


AV8R
#1779661 - 01/05/07 11:57 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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chronoPilot Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by AV8R:
How does a dual 2.13ghz outperform a dual 3.4ghz dual core uP?
Come on, AV8R, you're an EE, right? \:D You must be one of those analog/EM guys... \:D \:D

I don't have engineering data, but the one article I read basically said it was done by drastically shortening the pipeline (among other enhancements) so that when it executed predicted-branch fetches that failed, the pipeline could be cleared and refilled much sooner. The end result is that more relevant instructions are executed per unit of time.

Sorry, I don't have the link. I'm a few years away from looking at a Core Duo. \:\(


Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
#1779662 - 01/06/07 12:58 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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Posts: 185
PaulB Offline
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Why not an AMD?

#1779663 - 01/06/07 02:05 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 383
Ed_1 Offline
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NYC, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by AV8R:
Yes, I did my homework at TomsHardware.com
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=438&model2=433&chart=166

No, I dont mind asking for help.
In fact I invite the knowledge of the many perspectives and flightsimming users.
(I use FalconAf, Lomac, IL2, MSFSX, 3rdWire)

Folks im down to two systems for my next
flight simming system. These two systems are almost identically priced and featured. Its coming down to processor type. (Ive already decided on Intel over AMD, so bear with me and no offense meant).

Which is the better choice and why for a flight simmer to choose for the next couple of years?

Door #1:
Intel Pentium D Processor 945, 3.4GHz, 2GB RAM (dual uPs)
http://www.intel.com/products/processor/pentium_D/index.htm

Door #2:
Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6400, 2.13GHz, 2GB RAM (Intel Viiv Technology)
http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller...ature/index.htm
http://www.intel.com/core2duo/c2e.htm?iid=mtply_overview_tab_c2e (gaming perspective)

Apparently the D processor is cheaper and has a faster core; but doesnt perform as well as the DUO for QUAKE (why dont they use FLIGHTSIMS). The DUO is 64 bit vs the 32 bit of the D sequence uP.

When it comes to simming and Vista on the horizon, whats the arguements for making a choice?

Not to bias you, but im leaning towards the DUO2.

Thank you

AV8R
Hi

This is my personal opinion, go with core 2, for many of reason noted above posts, cooler, less power hungry and also better upgrade path.

You can check here for preformance charts, just pick the CPU's to test against with the app to test.

http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html

Ed

#1779664 - 01/06/07 04:36 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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hag Offline
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agreed.... core2D = future... D = past ( albeit a powerful one, but last years tech )...

Hag


-=72VFW=-
#1779665 - 01/06/07 08:17 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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AV8R Offline
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AV8R  Offline
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Yea Im on the EE end of the EDA software business. Many of these hardware vendors use "our" software to make these chips. Im a digital hierarchial simulation and synthesis expert, not a systems architect. I dont have the system performance insights.

When I research the Intel public site literature\, I have yet to find a head to head comparison. The TomsHardware page was the closest thing to what I was after.

I think its time some of us start lobbying TomsHardware to use MSFS10 or FalconAF or LoMac as a benchmark, not just QUAKE3.

SimHQ might take a shot at this too, but they probably dont have the bucks to try lots of combinations of uPs and systems that Tom's can field. Maybe Im wrong.


AV8R
#1779666 - 01/06/07 08:27 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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FLA Offline
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I think one thing the new Core 2 Duo has that the older Pentium chips did not have was alot more floating point pipelines in the CPU.

The FPU in older Pentiums chips were very bad (like 10x slower than relevant AMD chips) which is why AMD always performed better at games which used alot of 3d matrix math.

However, in the new Core 2 Duo chips, they really beefed up the FPU, and in fact made it like 2x or 3x faster than AMD chips... So really the FPU in the newer Core 2 Duo is like 30x faster than the older Pentium chips.

#1779667 - 01/07/07 02:58 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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Ribeye Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by AV8R:
Yea Im on the EE end of the EDA software business.
Oh man... another one with a "I think-I-know-what-I-am-talking-about" issue...

EE end??? As in End Executioner end??? Dude, seriously - what is wrong with you ??? Don't have enough folks around your household to listen to what you've got to say, or summing'?

Quote:
Originally posted by AV8R:.
SimHQ might take a shot at this too...
Might take a shot ???

Judging by your reg number you must've been around since before Clinton was in the House
and you mean to tell me you never read SimHQ reviews with technical data, charts, etc. comparing every existing CPU/RAM/VidCard combination performance on Pacific Fighters, Falcon and LoMac ?? Check the archives, enlighten yourself, will ya...


Quote:
Originally posted by AV8R:
Maybe Im wrong.
You'd better believe it.. get out of SimHQ more...

I've got a problem with people coming across as knowledgable when all they are saying is, in fact, the complete lack of any knowledge...

#1779668 - 01/07/07 05:10 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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chronoPilot Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ribeye:
...I've got a problem...
That's for sure...yikes...

EE - Electrical Engineer. Sorry, the context (microprocessors) might not've been clear. Most people think of programmers when they think of processors.


Not by accident does Genesis 3 make the father of knowledge a serpent - H.L. Mencken
#1779669 - 01/07/07 06:37 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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Posts: 2,536
AV8R Offline
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AV8R  Offline
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ChronoPilot,

No problem buddy. Thanks for your input.

The performance difference between the two
processors was next to nothing for QUAKE3 at Tom's.
If theres a link comparing these two uP h2h
for these sims, Id appreciate the reference link.

The C2D is going to have longer legs and is
newer technology, so thats where Im going go.
Im betting it runs cooler as well.

Cheers,

AV8R


AV8R
#1779670 - 01/07/07 11:18 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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Arthonon Offline
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Looks like someone missed their meds...


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#1779671 - 01/08/07 12:36 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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PaulB Offline
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I'm curious why you've ruled out any of the AMD 4x4 offerings.

#1779672 - 01/08/07 03:53 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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Arthonon Offline
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Paul,

I can't of course speak for AV8R, but I know when I looked into buying a new system short time ago, the research I did showed the Intel offerings were better than the AMD products in most every respect, but especially in price/performance ratings.

That was a few months ago, so I didn't factor the 4x4 class in, but after reading your post I did a little more checking into it, and while it was in no way exhaustive, I did not find any information that indicated the AMD chips were superior to the Intel chips. The most positive thing I read is that the newer 4x4 chips brought AMD pretty close to Intel's price/performance ratio, but they still use more power and run hotter, and don't have the over-clocking potential.


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#1779673 - 01/09/07 12:55 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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AV8R Offline
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AV8R  Offline
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Paul,

1. I knew AMD vs Intel battle would ensue.
So an Intel vs Intel discussion was tamer
for the most part.

2. Intel is leading the pack for the momement.
I suspect that when AMD and ATI get a working
together uP-GPU chip going, it will be the next
cat's meow.

But for me right now, for ~$1K I was able to buy
a full system with an E6400 C2D uP and 2Gigs and a bunch of other features from CompUSA. Its so hot they cant keep them in the stores, so I had to make a quick decision between the E6400 and 945-D uP versions of their systems offerings.



I used to keep systems for years, now it seems
that sim requirements are getting steeper faster.
Take a look at what MSFSX requires. Even my "old" P4 3.4Ghz H.T. system is sucking wind.

With relatively low system costs like this, Ive
decided to stop building my own systems and buy
full systems that can be upgraded more often than
building one expensive uber system like I used to. Technology is moving so fast and prices are
going in the right direction, buying systems are
now something I take seriously.


AV8R
#1779674 - 01/09/07 06:00 AM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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PaulB Offline
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Good answer.

I wish we had a CompUSA up here in this part of Maine. What kind of 3D card are you going to bundle into that?

#1779675 - 01/09/07 01:52 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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TurtleHawk Offline
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And what do you do with the accumulating old rigs? Give away? Recycle?

It's starting to look like a used car lot in my laundry-room.


"Sure did blow up good..."
#1779676 - 01/09/07 03:45 PM Re: Hardware UpGrade Time: Core2-DUO or 945-Dual uP ?  
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AV8R Offline
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AV8R  Offline
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Southern California USA
PaulB,
It comes with a nVidia 7300LE which isnt the best
vcard to have. An ATI x1950 is probably better,
but if all my sims run good with it, ill just
upgrade the vcard at a later date.

I helped my brother in law get FalconAF running
on the lower model than what I bought, and it
ran FalconAF faster and doesnt bog down over FLOT
like my P4 3.4ghz does, primarily due to the dual
core technology that AF takes advantage of, plus
the 2Gigs of RAM.

CompUSA is online and you can buy at:
http://www.compusa.com
and refine the search by Intel/AMD, price range,
RAM etc. HP has been a good Computer thus far
and their customer support is about the best.


Turtle,
I totally know what you mean about a computer
used parking lot. Usually I run two gaming
systems, one for FalconAF/LoMac/IL2/MSFSX and the
other is for shooters/retrosims/kids stuff.

But the 'Puter-boneyard is starting to grow. So
what I do is give them away to the small school
that my kid goes to before my wife sells it for
peanuts at the next garage sale.

Arthonon & Suntrace,
You guys sum up the technology advantages well.

The problem is finding those documented in a
place that brings this out in our Simming space.
Like if Quake3 runs great, that gaurantees our
favorite flight sims? Its probably better than
comparing with generic 3D BMs or spreadsheet
tests, but something closer to home would help.


AV8R
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