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#1392792 - 08/24/04 06:59 PM Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Ursus Offline
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Could it be an idea for the simulation community to try to get in contact with either the developer or publisher of WoW and propose them to make either a realism/simulation patch or perhaps addon to WoW? As I understand (it isn't released here yet), WoW has the potential to be a great sim with some modifications. Perhaps could SimHQ try to contact them for an interview/discussion - Tom Cofield - what do you say? I guess they would answer if such an established website as SimHQ contacts them.

Ideas of a sim can't be far off for the developer - they made HD and HD2 which are - if not simulations - at least not the usual WW2 shooter. I don't have the game yet, so I don't know what has to be changed myself, but it shouldn't be too difficult for the community to propose a sufficient list of changes (not setting the target too high I think). As already been said - it looks a bit like WoW started off as a sim and was transferred into an arcade game.

Just an idea.

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#1392793 - 08/24/04 07:13 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Ursus Offline
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Just to be clear - this isn't instead of KoE!!!

#1392794 - 08/24/04 07:40 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Good idea, Great minds think alike Ursus. That is now two of us who have asked Tom if he can assist like this. The parent company is New York based, though the game writers appear Czech, according to the credits.


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#1392795 - 08/25/04 12:14 AM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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I was waiting for the official and/or "unofficial" WoW websites to bring online their forum(s), and then we can voice our greater wants and desires direct!

The forums are comin', in the meantime some of us are still waiting to play the "first version" of the game yet! \:D

#1392796 - 08/25/04 12:49 AM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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These threads are killing me since I cant get my hands on it. I am amazed at the price. Doom goes for $50 and this goes for around $20.

I hope the devs are open to supporting this game and have'nt moved on. If not then I have no doubt it will be cracked and when it is I offer my paintbrush to any realism mod.


CSG_Rummy
#1392797 - 08/25/04 02:23 AM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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If you guys can get ahold of the decision makers at TakeTwo and the Gathering and talk them into making a patch or an add-on, more power to you.

But you've got to remember who these people are and where their interests lay (or should I say lie or lye ..whatever) These are the very same people who pulled the plug on KOE. If they had even the slightest interests in doing something FOR the WWI community, why wouldn't they have continued to support KOE.

The former CEO of TakeTwo was forced to resign after the SEC started to investigate the company for accounting irregularities. There's a new regime in charge at TakeTwo. The head office is in NY, put the people calling the shots are in the UK. There's a reason this product looks like a sim that was dumbed down to play on the Xbox. I'm sure the developers over in the Czech Republic would love to have the chance to make their product more like a real sim but I don't know if they'll ever be given the chance.

#1392798 - 08/25/04 04:43 AM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Hey Killdevil ,

I'm sure they will stick with it since they are a small company and it's easier to update than to spend limited resources on something new. I'm here in Fayetteville . Saw your North Carolina Islands and wondered where you were till saw Kill Devil . Took a group of scouts there back in 83 . 9 of them they stayed up all night the first night and I had to drag them up the Lighthouse and Kill Devil hill . They were all hating it cause they were so tired . They said you go see the lighthouse let us sleep . I said we didn't sell Krispy Kreme doughtnuts for 6 weeks to drive 3 hours here to sleep .


scott hill
#1392799 - 08/25/04 01:11 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  

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Is that right - WoW is published by the ex-publishers of KoE? That's interesting - so sounds like either they were holding a race between the two dev teams to see which finished first (or delivered what they considered the more saleable product) and then dumped the loser (unfortunately, KoE) or else they had no intention of ever publishing KoE but didn't want to see any possible competition to WoW, so they pretended to support it just so that they could stifle it. Not very nice.

But I'd have to say that I suspect Xeidos2 is right - there is probably less than no chance of getting a realism patch or offical mod to WoW. For a start, I don't suppose the publishers give a rodent's rear end what the sim community want. Look at Aspect, a hard core simulation dev team producing a hard core simulation, but from what Xeidos has said, their head man won't even look at the forums. I suspect that a mainstream publisher producing arcade style games isn't going to spend two seconds of its time servicing the flight sim community's needs. As to approaching the developers direct, I don't really know how these things work, but don't developers sign away all rights to the games they produce? Again, if Xeidos was only allowed to talk to us after many months when things had really fallen apart, I doubt Silver Wish will be allowed to talk to us at all. Besides which, they are presumably by now deep into their next project.

So by all means try but I really don't think you will get anywhere. (Hope I'm wrong).

#1392800 - 08/25/04 01:54 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by fearlesslds:
Hey Killdevil ,

I do doubt that we will see much support. However, Ubi owns the rights to Forgotten Battles and 3rd party stuff has made its way into the sim.

I'm sure they will stick with it since they are a small company and it's easier to update than to spend limited resources on something new. I'm here in Fayetteville . Saw your North Carolina Islands and wondered where you were till saw Kill Devil . Took a group of scouts there back in 83 . 9 of them they stayed up all night the first night and I had to drag them up the Lighthouse and Kill Devil hill . They were all hating it cause they were so tired . They said you go see the lighthouse let us sleep . I said we didn't sell Krispy Kreme doughtnuts for 6 weeks to drive 3 hours here to sleep .
You got me. Funny thing is that I spent about a year in Fayetteville during my brief period with the DOD. Lived in a RV at a placed called Lazy Acres. After living there a bit I deemed it Crazy Acres.

Xeidous2,

I am sure this is all killing you. I dont think there is one of us here that would'nt prefer to be fying KOE. The problem is that the WWI folks have been left to themselves for so long that we will take anything at present. After things went south with KOE I had aspirations of trying to revive the WWI addon for Forgotten Battles (If we could of presented just a few completed models it had a very good chance to see full support...trying to say this in a way that does'nt get me in trouble). THere was no need for it when KOE was close to release, it would have made no sense to the decision makers. So we go from having possibilites to having no possibilites. KOE is set aside but the hunger was not. Along comes WOW and bam its not that bad (atleast as far as I can see).

At present we have no choice, we have to pursue this, it's all there is at the moment that represents a current WWI sim even if it is a bit arcade like. I do agree in that we probably wont see any official support, so we will either have to do it ourselves or wait.


CSG_Rummy
#1392801 - 08/25/04 02:36 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Ivor H Offline
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There is a credible basis for an approach to the devs/publishers to do something, and it's got nothing whatever to do with doing any favours for the flightsim community - rather an odd notion that, to any businessman, and for obvious reasons

It goes like this.

WoW has generated a lot of interest amongst potential purchasers (who happen to be prop/WW1 combat flightsimmers. With the suspension of KoE and the age of other products, there's a business opportunity here.

It makes commercial & marketing sense for T2I
to exploit this opportunity for increased sales and product longevity by doing, fairly quickly, one of, but smarter still both of, two things.

1. First, have a think about gettng the dev team to do a LITTLE work to release a realism patch. Do the sums - how much would it cost, what extra sales could it generate. See if there's a cost/sales option in there that would be positive. As a "low cost" option would mostly involve taking out arcady stuff rather than adding new stuff it shouldn't cost too much. IF WoW was originally in dev as a sim then better still, adding some stuff, like better stall behaviour or whatever else might be in the can and wouldn't need lots of dev & testing time, might be possible without adding much more cost.

2. Especially if 1 above is too expensive/risky, get the dev, as a minimum, to release the info and the tools the community would need to build upon the product, like MS do with their CFS SDKs. Wings relesed a lot of stuff for Panzer Elite. So give us an extractor for .dta files. Guidance or s/w on how to make missions and incorporate them. Info on the structure of tha game files eg where do you go to fiddle if you wanted to turn off the rockets, replace sounds. What s/w do you need to make or modify 3d models & convert them to game format. How do you edit the maps.Preferably release source files for those of the plane 3d models that have arcady features, like the SPAD and Brisfit's upper Lewis Guns. How do you build mission briefings, get missions to show on menus etc. Draw up some groundrules, and set up a forum where all sides can talk.

Option 1 may very well be viable, in some form; but if it isn't, then option 2 should be. IPR issues don't prevent other games being made modable and many that aren't get modded without the dev's help anyway - eg there's a .dta file extractor built for Mafia. We don't need the whole source code, just enough clues and/or tools to get the talented people who'll (hopefully!) flock to this. no doubt there will be frustrating limitations, but T2I might just be sitting on the Next Big Thing in combat flightsims, and they could benefit from that with very little effort.

We don't need to ask for charity. There is real opportunity to boost sales of WoW, and build goodwill for future products, by doing even a modest amount - 2 above if not also 1. Silver Wish would have an incentive to help from wanting to build their name, T2I and Gathering get kudos and some sales they wouldn't have got otherwise, for just a little outlay.

That I reckon is the sort of proposition we need to put. But it needs to be put soon, while the iron's hot. Best place is probably the Gathering "new games" forum, rather than waiting for a WoW forum to appear.

Wotcher reckon?


When you soar into the air in a Sopwith scout
And you're scrapping with a Hun and your gun cuts out
Well, you stuff down your nose till your plugs fall out
'Cos you haven't got a hope in the morning!
#1392802 - 08/25/04 03:13 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Cas141 Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by killdevil:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fearlesslds:
[qb]Xeidous2,

I am sure this is all killing you. I dont think there is one of us here that would'nt prefer to be fying KOE. The problem is that the WWI folks have been left to themselves for so long that we will take anything at present.
Well, I can't say that I agree with this. How can we say that we would prefer to be flying a sim that doesn't exist? Let's not forget that SimHQ was kind enough to give this promised sim a forum and then when all us WW1 sim nuts wanted some basic info, we got ignored; to the point where it was wondered if it was a hoax?
Then along comes a WW1 game/sim on the market for half the usual price and some of us have a look at it. Because of its shortcomings, I would sooner be flying a sim combining ( the best and desired ) parts of WoW, FCG, Red Baron.
But we don't know that that is KOE.
And I will not "take anything at present"- I speculated 20 and if it had been rubbish I would have given it away.. but it isn't rubbish.
I've just been trying to down the AI, one on one, with most of the "released" planes, and I can only hold my own with some !!.
If you think you're the type of flier who can down three AI whilst having a cigarette and a coffee \:\) ('cos it's arcadey, simple rubbish ), have a go at this !
Remember - there is no padlock, and my trackIR could sure have done with an Absolute mode \:D
Oh, and there are 4 or 5 skins available per plane.
This publisher put this on the market without coming here or anywhere else, ( so far as I know ), saying he was going to do so, etc- and no doubt he expects/hopes for certain X Box sales etc. But if he becomes aware that this WW1 community like a lot of what has been produced and would buy his DVD version if
1. a few Red Baron type missions were written, and
2 arcadey bits were removed, either by a small patch or letting mods have a go, why should he not do that. ?
He may work out whether spending on making a patch is viable, so would you ,if you were he,but, in the absence of a patch, allowing mods could be on.
Would allowing that decrease his present sales expectations? I submit not. Perhaps a marketing professional may offer to comment ?
As I have said before, I will buy KOE if and when it appears. If the price is too much to speculate the investment, I will look for reviews, screenies, videos, opinions etc. And if the verdict is good, I would pay more than usual, if necessary.
But let us not give accolades to a sim that does not yet exist and may not.
I hope it does make it.


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#1392803 - 08/25/04 04:27 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Ursus Offline
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Ivor H - Your approach to this is about what I think myself. Don't ask for too much, small modifications, go for this as a business idea and do it fairly soon.

The problem is to get in contact with the right people - I wouldn't count too much on the Gathering forums. Possibly one could try in the developer's end by contacting Illusion (they have contact mail adresses at their website) and try to get in touch with someone at Silver Wish and that way find the right contact at T2I. I thought that perhaps SimHQ could do something, like try to get an interview to start with - SimHQ has of course more credibility than a single person. No reply from Tom Cofield yet though.

#1392804 - 08/25/04 06:21 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Ivor H Offline
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Hi Ursus

I've sent TC a PM.


When you soar into the air in a Sopwith scout
And you're scrapping with a Hun and your gun cuts out
Well, you stuff down your nose till your plugs fall out
'Cos you haven't got a hope in the morning!
#1392805 - 08/25/04 08:54 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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killdevil Offline
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Cas141, perhaps you miss understood the entirty of my post. As the saying goes a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush, ofcourse WOW should be furtherd. WOW was not marketed as a simulator KOE was, so as flight simmers go most would probably have preferd KOE. I am still amazed that this slipped under the radar. Why, most likely because it was created for console, but who knows. Point was we have a viable product that we did'nt have two weeks ago.


CSG_Rummy
#1392806 - 08/25/04 09:41 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Ursus Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ivor H:
Hi Ursus

I've sent TC a PM.
:)

#1392807 - 08/25/04 10:08 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Cas141 Offline
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Ivor S! - I'm with you and Ursus on this.
Especially asking SimHQ ( Tom ) to help due to their undoubted influence.
If we could ask all users of WoW to concentrate on the Instant Action, rather than the wrongly named "campaign ", then they will see, having access to all the planes, just how sim like this WoW is, and can be made to be.

cheers


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#1392808 - 08/26/04 04:45 PM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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I really think that creating a working .DTA extractor is the #1 step for WOW.
Then we can see how much this game can be improved by modding, and how much can only be done by the devs.

Skins, sounds, terrains etc. can certainly be modded easily once we can get at the contents of the .DTA files.

Plane FM/DM, weapons, etc. are almost certainly also moddable, though it might require working out how the files for
this data are organised.
Missions are similar. If the format can be thoroughly figured out it will be possible to make an IL2Gen-like mission generator although probably not a dynamic campaign; that would require the game to log the mission events (planes shot
down etc.) which it doesn't do at the minute

Things like advanced FM behaviour (spins, torque, wind etc.), mission logging to allow dynamic campaigns, and AI improvements, would probably have to be added by the developers.

Anyway, about the .DTA files. Though they have the same name to H&D2 and Mafia files and also are accessed by a file
called rw_dta.dll, they are very different - they are (AFAIK) not compressed. This will make extracting MUCH more straightforward than Mafia files (with that game, not only is the data compressed, but the list of the files in the .dta
files is too). People have written extractors for data formats much more complicated than WoW's so it should certainly be possible.

We really need to get someone with programming skills and knowledge of binary file formats to look at this. Is there anyone
here matching that description?

#1392809 - 08/31/04 06:32 AM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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I have written to them in the past about RR Tycoon 3 and maybe getting some kind of interview for the game. I haven't ever heard back from them. I will try contacting someone there again but I don't expect much.

Plus I'm up to my elbows in alligators here as well. I have four games either in preview or review, a fence to finish, my wife just found out that two kids are coming up for adoption and we may get both (ugh) which means adding on to the house and add to that I had to tear my 62 T-bird's dash apart last weekend just to get the windshield wipers to work. I am going to be happy to get myself back on an even keel.


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#1392810 - 08/31/04 09:45 AM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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FlyXwire Offline
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Sounds like you're livin' large Tom! \:D

#1392811 - 08/31/04 09:54 AM Re: Realism/sim patch/addon proposal for WoW?  
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Cas141 Offline
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Yea, seems like you ain't got time to be tired \:D
Best of luck and thanks again for your efforts for flight sims.


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
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