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#1392191 - 08/07/04 10:18 AM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:
Oh, I don't know if we have a bigger ego. I know some folks do but you get that with any group of game players. Trust me, the wargaming crowd can be just as bad.
Hm. Have you followed civ sim forums closely and if so, do you think the crowd there has on average an as big ego?

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#1392192 - 08/07/04 11:42 AM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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There is some very good reasoning here, even though there are differences in emphasis, about why the flight sim industry is not thriving.
IMHO, it is because there are not enough newbies.
After all, flight sims are not potatoes. Once you have bought one copy, you don't need to keep buying another.
.
So, why is that we are not attracting and keeping the newbies?
Going on my experience of trying to get my mates into flight sims, raises some interesting points.
All have an interest in aviation- R.C model aircraft fliers- so you'd think they would jump at it.!
No way - One thinks it is a computer "game", he doesn't play computer games; he won't investigate further. The other looks and dabbles and has an occasional go, but doesn't commit.
I suspect the first feels the same as the second, ie- it is too hard and requires too much time to learn.
There is a learning curve at least as hard as learning to drive a car, and like that, there is a point where you "crack" it. I remember reaching that point and then I loved my flight sim. But if I hadn't managed to get to that point soon enough, I would have packed up sims.
We need "You can crack it Sims "
Today, not many have too much time to "crack" it. So what will keep them there long enough?
Tom gave one good reason - eye candy . It has to look real enough to pretend you are flying. They don't need the wife/kids/girlfriend over their shoulder saying, "What's that supposed to look like?"
They also have to have the prospect of succeeding.
I remember first playing IL-2, and when the enemy came at me and passed me head on and I looked back and saw that he was taking just as long to turn as i was, and seemingly finding it as hard as I was, I knew I wanted to play this game.Before long I shot one down and that was it!!
Then FB came out and suddenly the AI was dead eye dick and turning on a sixpence behind me and superman was flying it.I was dead every time!!
I thought, this sim has "improved worse", and in that respect, it has. It has fallen in to satisfy the "hardcore", so the previous realistic give- you-a -chance gameplay has gone.
And, I suspect , that so have some newbies who may well have stayed with IL-2.
You can't blame Oleg too much re that, 'cos he was getting pressure from the hardcore to improve this, improve that. Posts from guys saying "the AI is crap because I can take out 2 Aces on my own whilst lighting a cigarette", and "improve the FM of this and that" etc. And " where is this gun, or that gun" ?
But, what was wrong with IL-2 original in these respects if it was capable of being handled by newbies.??
Another newbie friendly sim was Flying Corps Gold.
For it's time it was leading edge , but now, it would need new terrain graphics.- But that's all.
If Tom was reviewing it today, with his "newbie rating " in mind, I suggest it would rate highly without any changes at all ( except the graphics).

Yes, we have got too nicketty-picketty re FMs, and dynamic Campaigns etc.
Perhaps "Help for newbie" sub forums, in Sim forums, would also help. Newcomers reading some posts must be put off by many threads talking about matters they have never heard of. etc.
It can all add up to them thinking "this is all too much"

It is a difficult subject to get the balance right, but I hope the guys do,- and that our hobby doesn't fade away.


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#1392193 - 08/07/04 12:34 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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More good reasoning Cas!

Hey all I need to mention to get that "nicketty-picketty" in all of us resounding off the walls again is to bring up padlocking (and please lets not debate this over again here too), but in reference to your posting above Cas, padlocking is for some (maybe more so for newbies) a very helpful playability feature.

Sure, some sim "experten" will say "don't need it", "destroys SA", "get TrackIR", etc.! Well suffice it to say that if it helps balance the virtual gameplay of a sim, or enables dogfighting w/o some tremendous cost in historical accuracy then just "let it be".

After all, people can group on different multiplayer servers for different realism settings, but for some (especially newbies), having balancing gameplay features like padlocking makes that sim more accessible out of the box, and without lots of people willing to buy that box, this hobby isn't going anywhere. ;\)

#1392194 - 08/07/04 03:05 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  

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S! All!

I'll tell you what my favorite 'crutch' is. I like the External View format of RB3D. I could look very quickly for enemies, friendlies, whomever just shot at me, and could pick one and stick a key on him. Was that realistic? REAL pilots thought it did a good job of making up for the limitations of computer monitors.

Externals are not the perfect answer. I'd like to see them modeled such that you lose a plane briefly if it is underneath you or in another position where you would not be able to see it, but then you pick it up again when it comes back into view. I'd also like to see externals done such that you can't use them like a radar.

Externals in these cases give you a good perspective of where your plane is relative to another plane. You get a sense of position, direction, track, and speed. Real pilots say they can do this from within their cockpits.

Track IR works pretty well for those who have it, but newbies don't have it. Padlock doesn't help you if you have Track IR. I see no reason to disable Padlock. Track IR works better anyway! In fact, Track IR works pretty darn well. But not quite well enough - I have a very hard time re-centering my view with Track IR... Maybe I should try Track IR 3...

But the real be-all end-all for flight sims will be goggles that pan as you move your head. These will work in a 3-d movement cycle, such that moving your head laterally and horizantally will change your view just as much as turning it or looking up.

Imagine leaning over your chair and looking down around your wing. The technology is there. If we had that, we wouldn't NEED help with anything other than identifying planes. And with goggles, you could make a true 3D view (with depth perception) so it would only be a matter of time before even identifying planes became easy.

But we have to keep our genre alive until this kind of technology makes it into flight sims.

I'm going to stick to my original statement that the 'hardest' settings should not make a flight sim harder than real life.

I remember reading a review shortly after RB3D came out where a real pilot flew it and said 'Yeah. That's right.' I really took that compliment to heart. A real pilot was saying that the game felt to him the same as the real thing.

I'm an armchair pilot. I have no idea what 'real flight' feels like from the pilot's chair. I'd be talking out of my bottom-side if I said I did. I can't tell Oleg or anyone else what real flight 'feels' like. What I can ask for though is legitimate criteria. I can ask that the game be made to feel 'right' to REAL pilots instead of a bunch of armchair pilots like myself.

I fly almost entirely online. I'm not big on AI. They just don't move right - they don't fly smart. I like a challenge, and I only find it online. RAF74_Taipan, I_JGI_FourShades and I have been working on an online dynamic campaign system for years now for IL2/FB/AEP. It should also be compatable with PF and BOB when they come out (provided Oleg doesn't make major changes to his log file and mission file formats). Our campaign system lets the players control the flight assignments, and will eventually let them control the ground war as well. And I think this is the FIRST time a group has tried to do this sort of thing ONLINE.

When Taipan and I started this project something like three or four years ago we envisioned something pretty grand. We made great strides for a while, but then my free-time dried up and our progress slowed. When FourShades joined our group we started picking up our progress again. Now we are getting VERY close to having a real multiplayer dynamic campaign where the PLAYERS control the war.

If you guys want something to work on that is close to completion and that can make a real impact on immersion, take a look. Our website doesn't give much info and the 'program' you can download is quite old and does not work with the current version of FB/AEP. But you can look at the forums, and you can track our progress on SourceForge. We are working under the GPL Open Source license. Anyone who wants to help can. Just look for the 'Scorched Earth Online War' and you'll find us...

But our project doesn't address the root-problem either. I think our project will revolutionize online wars, but it won't make the game more accessible to new players.

#1392195 - 08/07/04 06:02 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  

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Hey Cas,
You ought to see the kind of treatment a newbie gets in a RB server...lol. It reminds me a lot of a room full of guys and one pretty girl..they are falling all over themselves just to help.

MM

#1392196 - 08/24/04 03:57 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Quote:
Originally posted by RAF74_Wall-dog:
S! All!

snip many good points to save the internet..

Maybe you give out the SP game for free and then sell the multi-player part.
A lot of good points RAF. To comment on the one model I picked out - it does exist -free SP to a small extent, target practice only in reality-, pay for MP, and it is successful. Aces High 2 is a free download, has a free two week trial, and after that costs $15 per month. IF you don't like it they still allow you to use it with as many as 8 players online in a H2H mode at no cost. MANY thousands pay their $15 per month happily which of course equates to $180 every year per person. It works. And that leads to another thing, acceptable cost of boxed sims.

As i've had EAW and Falcon 4.0 for over 5 years lets see, $50/5 < $10 per yer and falling.. I for one also see no problem in paying $100 up front for a another quality title with that type of longevity. Let's not confuse this with the garbage that has been shoveled out the door the past few years that wasn't worth the $40 I paid just to support the genre. Can you say Strike Fighters? Only the fact that talented people outside of the developers have been messing with it is it not a forgotten bad memory..


Gary "Icer" Patricks

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#1392197 - 08/24/04 08:04 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
!

I've come to the personal realization that I'm willing to sacrifice some "ultimate realism" in one category or another, if a sim has that overall balance, and represents eminent playability.

A lot of sense written in the last few posts, especially the above.
Over the years, I have tried to interest some fellow RC model plane/glider fliers into flight sims.
And the fact that they haven't really gone for it is down,I think, to (1) not having cracked it, combined with, (2) the sim not looking real enough.
Same thing, (1),happens with guys who try RC models.
There is a learning curve and if they don't crack it- get to the point where they they are having some success, more times than not,then they lose interest.
Newbies and Sims - If they like the look of it, and they learn it well enough for success, then they will enjoy it and then progress.
Then the niceties come in- skins; scripted or dynamic; what type of missions; online or offline; duels or furballs, etc etc..
No newbie was ever hooked on to flight sims because one had a superb dynamic campaign.

So! - looks, balance and playability it is.


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#1392198 - 08/24/04 11:32 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Cas141, I too have thought back to this thread as the discussion around Wings of War continues, and as we dance around the issue of what hooks new players to a gaming genre, as well as what keeps established gamers in a genre happy.

Call it a bit of foreshadowing, but the very points made in this discussion here have preceeded the release of WoW, and are especially appropriate now after its release!

Perhaps the most important thing for all of us simmers to admit to ourselves, is that our interest evolve over time, and that we don't always need ever increasing levels of difficulty to be able to take our next sim experience seriously, but that things like playability and balance, and feature sets can have just as much impact on our enjoyment level as increases made to perceived "realism".

I once had a discussion with a cost accounting manager here at the automotive plant I work at, and it revolved around customer satisfaction and perceived levels of build quality. I insisted that manufactures like Toyota have acheived the level of customer satisfaction they enjoy because they have attempted not only to satisfy the customer's expectations, but that they routinely attempt to exceed those expectations! Now our cost manager insisted "we give the customer what he wants", and if he's not complaining about something, then we have met those expectations. I again insisted that this is not enough, that the competition will always win against an attitude like this, because if the competition continually exceeds the customer's expectations, then they will earn greater customer loyalty because they incorporate things that the customer doesn't even know to expect, but once made aware of will be grateful to have benefitted from nonetheless!

It's called driving the marketplace, and it doesn't only apply to automobile manufacturing.

There's many hidden features and design ideas that reside in a successful computer game, or within the build of a combat flight sim. We as customers may not always be aware of these features, but they are often reflected through an overall sense of game playability/replayability, immersiveness, and the degree of fun we enjoy from the gaming experience.

I'm going to give Wings of War a try, even though my first reactions against the game's marketer once led me to call for a boycott of the product because KOE apparently had been dropped as a result.

Yes, sometimes we have to admit there are things we might not know we even want.........or are unaware that we eventually want!

LOL......tryin' not to be that "old dog".............and maybe there's a few tricks we all can stand to learn, if we just give em a chance (that is).

#1392199 - 08/25/04 09:26 AM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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FlyXwire S! - Yes, I think we are more or less on the same wavelength.
You know, until your last post and that of Xeidos2 in another thread, Ursus', I did not know of any connection between KOE and WoW companies; nor of any "boycott call"
I am not too interested in getting involved in the politics of such matters, for a number of reasons, but mainly because I am unlikely to find out the full story.
What does spring to mind is that I don't suppose any publisher feels he can support both sims and has to make a decision to go for one.? I dunno... and it's not for me to worry too much about it.

All I know is, I saw a WW1 "sim" for 20, someone had said it had good terrain and so I thought I'd give it a go. Probably would have at that price , even if I'd seen Santa Claus was the publisher \:\)

The rest is history - I've posted my thoughts on what I found; I like it and I think others will too.IMHO it happens to fit in with the subject of this thread.

When(if) KOE comes out I'll buy that and give it a go. I may have to finish up playing one, I don't know yet. ( But I think RB3d is coming off the HD!, as my first love, FCG, has already done )

cheers


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#1392200 - 08/25/04 01:09 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  

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Yes it's interesting - it sounds as if WoW is very much like the 'simple sim to encourage the newbies' that many people (incl me) on this thread were saying was needed. Which is great, but then it's such a shame that the game isn't scaleable so that it can please newbies and simmers alike. It would take so little extra effort to make all features switchable, and include if nothing else a mission builder, and then everyone is happy. Sounds like some of the arcade features can be switched off - so why not all of them? It makes no sense to me.

The main problem I have with WoW is the basic game structure ie scripted missions in a linear progression. All this means is that I reach a point where I fail a mission over and over, and after replaying exactly the same mission ten or so times I get sick to death of it. I've lost count of the number of games I've given up on because of this 'feature' - and yet for some reason this is the established wisdom in computer games.

Added to that, scripted campaigns just don't have the replayability. 70 missions sounds like loads, but I must have played hundreds of EAW and RB missions. I suppose developers/publishers don't care, because they want to build in obsolescence to their games - once you've completed the campaign you will have to go out and buy a new game. Depressingly, it seems to work.

Worst of all though, and completely outrageous to my mind, is the idea of 'locking' planes. I've paid for the sim, that should mean I can use every plane in it. Can you imagine buying a book on WW1 aircraft, and finding at the end of chapter 1 that you are physically prevented from reading chapter 2 or any other chapter until you have passed a test on what you've read. No one would fall for that, yet in computer games it is commonplace. Mad. At least there's a cheat available.

I think computer games have got themselves stuck in a time warp. Games need a system of rewards to encourage players to keep playing. In the early days of Space Invaders and such like the rewards were completing levels and building up a score, and here we are thirty years later with the same structure - complete levels, only now they are called missions, get a high score. Even otherwise realistic sims like Il2 have the same structure - complete the levels. Even now with the dynamic campaigns of FB - silly messages popping up in the middle of a fight saying 'MISSION COMPLETED' - what's that supposed to mean? If I get back to base and land in one piece the mission is completed. If most of my squadron make it back too, and the CO is pleased with the damage we inflicted on the enemy then the mission is successful. Computer games should be complex and sophisticated enough to provide real world rewards, not have to resort to gamey nonsense about completing missions. I want a pilot with a flight record - if a mission turns out well the flight record should reflect that. If I perform badly I should be bawled out by the CO, maybe get a black mark in my record. A run of successes should mean high squadron morale and praise from HQ; failures mean dropping morale, maybe a reprimand. Flight sims should be able to provide all this, instead we have to put up with this 'MISSION COMPLETE' or even worse, 'MISSION FAILED - REPLAY' nonsense.

Just some more of my opinions...

#1392201 - 08/25/04 01:35 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Good post von.

#1392202 - 08/25/04 03:30 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Well, Von - I'd like it to be like that, but when the best graphics and a minimum # of planes have to be in the sim also, that is what puts the development costs too high that no one is prepared to do it.
So, we either fly simple missions, which I haven't consistently done well at all, BTW - always room for improvement- or we get no flight sims at all?
A golfing analogy. I don't change my golf club because I have played the same course time and again. I play it again to either beat others or the course better than I have before.

cheers


Mankind's problem is not failing to know the difference between right and wrong; - It is failing to know the difference between different and wrong
#1392203 - 08/25/04 03:54 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Ecellent post von, my thoughts exactly.

It seems to me that every developer takes the easy way out in terms of copying the FPS titles in terms of scripting missions and events, try to introduce "cinematic" qualities and in some instances introduce feeble attempts at mimicking RPG's by introducing characters that evolve.

In part, I suspect they do so because they read reviews of sims made by PFS gamers, and those reviews tend to ask for such stuff. But those reviews are not very representative of what some of us wish for.

Why not have a GAME that is much more open ended in it's structure, as you say von; do away with the silly "You won" screens and instead let the mission conclude to it's very end, and if the pilot survives there could be a lot of creative things done to make a debriefing session that incorporates the mission just flown.

I believe that we do a disservice to our own interests, if we just go along and meekly accept the developers offerings, even if we do not agree to what is being offered.

It shouldn't hit development costs, I rather think they would fall, as what I'm basically saying is that they can do away with the gimmicks that work once, but uppon repetition becomes painfully boring.

Just my 2 cents mind you \:\)


Jens C. Lindblad


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#1392204 - 08/25/04 05:56 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Just saw a little bit of news over at the Aerodrome forum that might be of interests to the people here and this seems to be the right thread in which to mention it.

It's just a rumor now, but if true it will have a big impact on the development of WW1 flight sims.
Apparently Peter Jackson is a big fan of WW1 aircraft. He's making King Kong right now and in the opening sequence there is suppose to be a WW1 dogfight since one of the main human characters is suppose to be a former WW1 pilot. Well the rumor is that he might be in the process of re-making The Blue Max once King Kong is finished. During my one and only meeting with a rep from Destineer, he said that the only thing execs at game companies were intersted in was getting franchise names to develop into games. Well if someone with the reputation of Peter Jackson re-makes The Blue Max, it will certainly go a long way in changing game publisher's outlook toward WW1 flight sims. Of course it could mean a boatload of more versions of WoW. Look at all the cheap WW2 flight games that came out after the movie Pearl Harbor.

#1392205 - 08/25/04 07:51 PM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xeidos2:
Well the rumor is that he might be in the process of re-making The Blue Max once King Kong is finished.
!!!

That's a great rumor, Xeidos. A Peter jackson remake of the Blue Max - and the possible game/sim tie-ins - have my mouth watering!

#1392206 - 08/26/04 12:55 AM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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Jackson doing a remake of Blue Max? I think I just wet myself at the potential of it.

If it had the same quality level of the LOTR films, it could very well be the best thing that happened to flight simming popularity.

I also agree with the scaled sim idea. That way, it appeals to hard core and newcomer alike to get their feet wet.

Still...

Personal Opinion:

Just about any sim out there has this option to make it super-easy. If you take away the sim in simulation, then why the heck would anyone want to play it though unless you're very young or just entering into the gaming genre?

Did gamers all become spoon-fed wussies all of sudden? You'll get a player who is willing to spend 5 hours completing an almost impossible FPS level but they don't have the patience to learn to fly a simulated plane in combat?

I just don't get the logic. When did gamers stop wanting to be challenged and rewarded with persistance and have everything that makes sims enjoyable thrown out? Adding some ill-chosen elements of other gaming genres is more of a band aid than well thought out solution to increasing the popularity of simming.

I guess the idea of a game without a medpack in some form or another is just too wierd these days.

Maybe it would be helpful to try to lose the old fart mentality of WW1 simming by producing good marketing campaigns. Most of the pilots were the same age as a young gamer. That alone if promoted well should get younger players interested since it involves people from their age group. It was certainly interesting enough for those involved.

I can't remember the last time I saw a decent flight sim marketing blitz. Maybe the easiest way to get more players interested is to appeal to the emotional side more than the aeronautical authenticity. That they can learn when they purchase the sim.

Get them excited about it. Study some successful game marketing and learn what works and what doesn't. Going back to the Jackson film rumour: It worked for LOTR. How many kids actually knew or cared about Tolkien's works before the film came out? Now Gandalf is a household word and kids are using the images in their sigs all over the place.

WW1 was a time full of excitement, fear, glory and death. It's all there waiting for anyone to discover.

Make it cool to be interested in it again and lose the sad geek tagline that so often ties in with simming.

Ever try to tell your friends why you like WW1 simming? It's tough isn't it? Most of us hide it as our secret obsession.

If we can't even bring ourselves to tell people about it without feeling silly then how can we expect it to be popular gaming genre again (or maybe that's just me ;\) )?

S!

#1392207 - 08/26/04 02:38 AM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
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.........and then we go back to all the discussion about what brings people initially to the "table" in the first place (be it a wargaming table, or a monitor)................that's probably caused by whatever attracts our eye the most!

I never feel weird talking about WWI aviation history or gaming it (or any military history for that matter), I sit back and chuckle when I see people get fired up about professional sports in fact!

WWI happened, nations futures turned with the events, millions died to decide who had the will to fight and "overcome", this was real, and not of pretentious importance like competitions that change or effect nothing with their passing, and are self-important only because we believe that the competition has significance.

Anytime I offer to discuss military history or geo-politics with my co-workers, and the topic turns to WWI, and avaition, and inevitably to my interest in WWI flight simulation, all I need to do is show them a screenshot of one of the skinned aircraft I've done (or something from another sim or game), and the image speaks volumes by itself!

People respond to the visual arts, to imagery, and the more real it looks the easier the connection with RL and what can be perceived by the human mind.

Talk of the horror of the trenches to the uninterested...............then show them the fly-covered and swollen bodies of the fallen, they suddenly realize what is trivial in their lives, and perhaps are grateful to be concerned with such petty diversions that they have manufactured their passions for.

Certainly we all enjoy diversions, as our gaming experiences certainly are, but they portend to simulate real events, and for this reason I hold these experiences significant (when I do choose to take them seriously that is).

Dantes, I know you understand the visual arts and imagery very well, as you are an artist in your own right, I'm just surprised you say you find explaining your interest in WWI flight simulation problematic, maybe if we could all bet on the outcome of a cyber-dogfight, and huge ammounts of money rode on the outcome, more people could "get it"......but then again, is that really where it's at anyway?

Ok, sorry to get a bit off topic here, but the point being there's a lot more "silly" things to feel silly about than studying or competing over things that simulate actual historical conflicts...............that's all. \:\)

#1392208 - 08/26/04 03:01 AM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  

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What ho!

I must confess that I seldom look at (or read) the forums. However, Wall-dog has made me aware of this thread.

I would only add that I am a bomber pilot. Have been for over six years. Started out in RB3D. Doesn't seem that long ago.

My point is that flight sims apart from all the other items discussed here have not been really proficient at developing bombers! IL-2 is especially deficient at this. We have only an old (1933) Russian bomber to fly. (I should mention that I never fly Nazi a/c!!) We have a B-17G and a B-25 which are essentially AI type a/c but not flyable (yet).

I took over THREE MONTHS to learn to land a P-47!! The speed of that thing is tremendous! I still have to learn how to fly a Mustang.

The point is that I had to learn how to land a P-47 because it is a fighter-bomber and sometimes we needed the speed in combat. I would have preferred to take a B-25 but it was not available. Or, better yet, I would have preferred to take the B-17G! But it wasn't available.

Essentially, I am a mud-mover without the adaptive skills to fly a fighter. So I am left with flying a Sturmovik (a very nice plane) or a TB-3.

Why not allow us to use the "externals" and fly a B-25?

SpitfireB

#1392209 - 08/26/04 04:03 AM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 284
fearlesslds Offline
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fearlesslds  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 284
fayetteville
Cas how true . Need to bring others in and that won't happen if they have to get a real pilot's license first . I remember starting RB2 and flying into the ground over and over for 2 days . Introduced 3 friends to the game and had to coach them past the cracking stage . Otherwise they would have chunked it . Have to have a game that has a arcade feel to bring in more targets I mean players.

I love sims being hard . Hate playing Call of Duty and seeing little first aid kits on the floor that give you more health or the ability to carry 14 different weapons all at once. But the broader the appeal the better we all are.


scott hill
#1392210 - 08/26/04 04:14 AM Re: The Death of the Flight Simulation Genre  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 284
fearlesslds Offline
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fearlesslds  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 284
fayetteville
Did gamers all become spoon-fed wussies all of sudden? You'll get a player who is willing to spend 5 hours completing an almost impossible FPS level but they don't have the patience to learn to fly a simulated plane in combat?[/B]

The point you miss is while they are trying to get through that level they are "SHOOTING" the whole time. 2 sec into the game and you are doing 80% of what you came to do. Not bouncing off the ground like I did for 2 days with RB or trying some saber jet game a few years ago and couldn't get the stupid thing to do anything but slide along the ground . Don't care for games like Doom or Quake but as Adolf put it so well "Your message (game) can't be any smarter than the dumbest person in your audience" . Take it from me (I work with the public) there are a lot of slow people out there .Look out here comes a F-86 down the highway. :p _


scott hill
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